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Full text of "Roman tradition examined, as it is urged as infallible against all mens senses, reason, the Holy Scripture, the tradition and present judgment of the far greatest part of the Universal Church, in the point of transubstantiation. In answer to a book called A rational discourse of transubstantiation"




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As it is urged as 



All Mens Senses, Reason, the Holy Scrip- 
ture, the Tradition and Prefent Judg- 
ment of the far greateft part of the 
Univerial Church, 



In Anfwer to a Book called 
A Rational Vifcourfe of Tranfubstantiation. 

Printed in the Year, \6j6. 


J J / 

- I 


'. ' 



^OMAJsC T%AT>1T10 3^ 


AMong many Books that lately came forth, of 
fomewhat the like tendency , there is one cal- 
led [ A Rational Difcourfe concerning Tranfub- 
flantiation , in a Letter to a Perfon of Honour , 
from a Mafter of Arts of the Univerfity of Cambridge.] 
Alas, for the unhappinefs of thofe Perfons of Honour that 
have fuch Teachers and Counfellors as this i Could they 
have no better? or would they not ? If they chofe them 
their mifery is j uh\ 

The Title Paraphrafed is [ A Rational Difcourfe againfi 
Senfe.^ But the ftrain of this, and abundance Written, 
by Men of the like ingeny, tell us convincingly, that 
while they difrruft all their Senfes, and would have all the 
Worjd diitruft them, and deny them, they are lb con- 
fident of their Thinking, Inventing, and Talking Faculties, 
that they dare fet them in Battel againfb the Senfes of all 
M inkind,andcheri(h ibme hopes to get the Victory. And 
verily, it is a wonderful victory that fuch Mens Tongues 
have got already, if all the Princes, Lords, Doctors, and 
all other People that go for Papifts, do really believe 
Tranfubftantiation . and if ibme be not in the right, who 
think that there is not one heart)' and compleat Papift in 
the World, unlets implicite Believers-may be called fuch, 
who believe as the Church doth, though they know not 

A 2 wh at j 


what ; but that the Matters of the Game are but the Ma- 
kers or Predicants of a Faith for others., which never 
was their own, and that they generate but their like, e- 
ven worldly diifemblers, and convert only Mens Tongues 
by the power of the Sword, and not their Hearts by all 
their Oratory. And Imuft confefs, that when I have 
heard a prophane Swearer, Curler, Railer, Drunkard, 
Whoremonger, plead for Tranfubftantiation, I have 
thought of peaceable Melancthons words [ You Italians 
maintain that Chrift is in the Sacrament ■> when you believe 
not that he is in Heaven.^ 

But the devout words and confidence of this Mafler of 
Arts maketh me think that he believeth himfelf, and 
that diffembling is not the Art that he is Matter of ; but 
though he be as he faith £ Non ignara mail ] yet he may 
be Ipnarus mali^ ignorant of his Error and of the Mifchief 
which he would do. Indeed if Men will needs believe 
that Night is Day, and Day is Night, we might fatisfie 
our felves with our companion for their weaknefs, with- 
out any importunate publick contradiction $ but our cafe 
with fuch Men as this, is fuch as prohibiteth fuch patient 
filence : For, the fame Religion which teacheth them to 
deny the Senses of Mankind, doth teach them to Extermi- 
nate^ Bum, Excommunicate, and Damn all thofe that will 
not do as they do, but will believe their Senfes $ andalfo 
to depofe thofe Temporal Lords that will not extermi- 
nate fuch from their Dominions. 

Two things yet I rauft note, that make me doubt whe- 
ther the Author befo honeft in his dealing as I could wifh 
him, and as a Man that talketh of God and Jejw chrift 
fhould be. i . That he fo blindly, or fraudulently ttateth 
the Queftion. 2. That he taketh fo little notice of the 
Books and Arguments that are Written againtthis Caufe, 



as if they needed no Anfwer, when we fuppofe that they 
have put the Error of Tranfubfhntiation fd far pad all ra- 
tional doubt, that it is fcarce pofllble for a Man that hath 
underftandingly, and ferioufly read them, to believe it : 
It is but lately that a fmall Book, on that Subjeft, was 
published by R. Baxter, Dedicated to the Duke of Lauder- 
dale, called, £ Full andeajie fatisf action, which is the true 
Religion, ~] \\ hich all the Papifts in the World can never 
give a rational Anfwer to • and therefore this Man dare 
fcarce take notice of fuch, left it fhould bring them to the 
notice of his Reader. But doth he think that we muft 
not know that his Book is Anfwered before it was Writ- 
ten, becaufe he will take no notice of it ? or muft we 
therefore repeat the fame things again ? 

The Roman Article of Faith is, that £ There is a 
change made of the whole finance of the Bread into the 
Body of Chri'f, and of the whole fuhfiance of wine into his 
Blood"] ib that our Controverfie with them hath two 
parts, i. Whether after Confecration there be no lon- 
ger Bread or wine ? 2 . Whether that which was Bread 
and wine is then turned into the very Flejh and Blood of 
Chriftt Now this Rational Difcourfer confoundeth thefe 
together, and in his progress dealeth ib little with the 
flrftpart, as if he were afraid that it lhould be taken no- 
tice of. 

The Reader muft farther note. 1 . That it is none of 
our Controverfie \_whether the whole [ub (lance of the 
Bread and wine he Relatively changed into the Reprefenta- 
tive Flejh and Blood of Chrijl which he once had, and offer- 
ed in Sacrifice for us on the Crofs, as the Lamb of Gid that 
taleth away the fms of the world • For, this is our Do- 
ctrine: ] But it is, whether there be a phyjical change of the 
jrwjfance of the Bread and nine into the natural JubjUnce 



of the F/eJl) and Blood of Chrifi which is now glorified. « 
2. That the Controverfie is not at all of the Real pre- 
(eme of chrifts glorified Body, whether it be in this or that 
place , or not ? but whether the B read and wine be chan- 
ged into it?. For, many Protectants (Lutherans, and o- 
thersj do prof efs that we have no certain clear Concepti- 
on of the nature of a glorified Body 5 and confequently 
as they cannot judge of the Locality and Prefence of a Spi- 
rit, fo neither of the Locality and Prefence of a spiritual 
Body: They know not whether the now prevailing 
Phylolbphy be not true, that Light is a Body, and Solar 
Light is the emanant fubftance of the Sun it felf, whofe 
Center is in the Heavens : And if its very fubftance be (b 
extenfive as to fill all the Air betwixt Heaven and Earth, 
( and more, ) and if the Light of an hundred Candles can 
be all together in one Room, they are uncertain what are 
the Limits of Chrifts Spiritual Body, or whether it be 
either of a more ignoble nature than the Sun, or of lcfs 
extent : And moft of the Greek Fathers thought Spiritual 
Bodies ( if not Spirits themfelves ) were Fire. And as 
our Senfe or Reafon cannot tell us whether or no there be 
now an Angel in this Room, fo neither can either of 
them tell us whether Chrifts Spiritual Body be here : This 
therefore they leave to God that knoweth it, and will 
have to be no no part of the Controverfie. 

1 . For the firft part, whether there be true Bread and 
wine after Confecration^ as many others have fully proved 
the affirmative, fo particularly the forefaid Author brief- 
ly hath proved it pan: all rational denyal. 1. From the 
S&nfes of all Mankind • an Argument fortified by twen- 
ty lubordinate convincing Arguments againft the deny- 
■ers of Senfe •, where the Papifts Anfwers are refuted. 
•2. He hath proved the Contradictions of the Dodrine of 


Tranfubftantiation. 3. He hath fhewed that the Do- 
ctrine of Tranfubftantiation afierteth one and thirty Mi- 
racles, w'xxh twenty miraculous aggr av;i 'ions . and hath 
fully proved from Scripture that thefe Miracles are fictiti- 
ous. 4. He hath proved from many exprefs Texts of 
Scripture, that it is Bread after the Conjecration. 5 . And 
alio that the Scripture it ielf doth fully teach us to ex- 
pound This is my Body, as we do, and not as the Papifts 
do. 6. He proveth that the very nature of a Sicrament, 
even as Aquinas defineth it, is inconfiftcnt with Tran- 
fubftantiation. 7. And Laftly, he proveth the Novelty 
ofyourDoftrine, and that the antient Writers werea- 
gainftit; which Albertin'ts^Pet. Molina de Novil.Pa- 
pifmi, the late Morning Leffures of the Nonconformists *• 
gainft Popery, and many others have proved at large. 
But thefe things our Difcourfer Rationally difjembleth, left 
if he Ihould antwer them it would appear to be no Ratio- 
nal Difiourfe. But let us hear what the Rationality is which 
he pretendeth to. [ 

His Difcourfe confifteth of three Atfertions, and their 
pretended Proof, and a fliort Anfwer to fome Scraps of 

Hisnrft Atfertionis, that [It is pofflle to the Omnipo- 
tent Power of God, to change the fubfance of Bread and 
wine into the fubflance of our blefjed Saviour's Body and 
Blood.] And he faith,that [ This his Adverfaries generally 
errant.] And yet, if he know what they fay, he knoweth 
that they maintain that Tranfubftantiation is a Do&rine 
of Contradictions, and that God cannot make two Con- 
tradictories true. They eafily grant him that God can do 
every thing which belongeth to Power to do : Though 
we are not fond of his phrafe [ Omnipotent Powers ] no 
more than of [ wife mfdom] or l/lrong Strength] or 

art At 


< 6) 

great Greatnefs,'] yet taking his meaning) we grant that 
Omnipotency is never {tailed with difficulties : Though 
God cannot lye, nor cannot hate goodnefs, nor love fin, 
nor make Contradictions true^ that is not for want of Pow- 
er, but becaufe he is perfect : He cannot be ignorant) or 
evil • and he cannot chufe but be God. 

I iuppofe that he taketh not Chrift's Body, though fpi- 
ritual, to be meerly, or properly Spirit, or ( as they 
/peak) immaterial h and fo that it is none of his meaning, 
that God can turn Bread into immaterial spirit ; which 
yet I would not have faid that he cannot do : But it is 
turning one Body into another which he calleth Poffible. 
And that God can do this by Appofition, or Union , adding 
one Body to another, I cannot deny : But thefe follow- 
ing Contradictions we take not for Poflibilities. 

i . For one Bod) to be turned into another pre* exiftent, by 
appofition, ( the Form of the changed Body ceafing, but 
not the Matter; ) and yet that the pre- existent Body mould 
not be increafed by the apportion, this is a Contradicti- 
on. As in Numbers, for two to be added to ten, and yet 
the Number be (till but ten, is a Contradiction : So for 
all the Bread that is Confecrated to lofe only its Form, 
and the Matter to be changed into the Body of Cktijt\ by 
appofition, and yet Chrifts Body to be no bigge r,is a Con- 
tradiction • unlefs fome pre-exiftent part of Chriits Body 
vanilh, and it be diminiflied by lofs, as much as it receiv- 
eth by appofition. 

You fay, that h ConcoBion we our [elves turn Bread and 
wine into Flejb and Blood daily: But note,that the Form 
only of the Bread and wine ceafeth, and the Matter re- 
ceiveth a new Form in us, and by appofition increafeth 
our Fleih and Blood ; and that our bulk increafeth not al- 
wa.y, is becaufe fome parts vanifh, as others are added ; 



and being in a continual Flux or Mutation, we have lit- 
tle, if any,of the fame Flefh and Blood this Year, that we 
had the lair, or a few Years ago. And doth ChrirVs Bo- 
dy thus change,and receive addition and diminution ? or, 
doth it grow bigger at the pleafureof the Pried ? 

2. If you fay that this is not your ordinary belief, but 
that the very Matter , as well as Form of the Bread and 
wine ceafeth $ I add, that it is a Contradiction, that the 
very Matter fhould ceafe to be, and yet be changed into a- 
nother Body. The ceaftng of Matter is Annihilation: 
And to fay that it is annihilated, and yet changed into .<- 
nother thing, is a Contradiction : As Matter is denomi- 
nated from the Form, when the Form ceafeth, the Mat- 
ter ceafeth to be the Matter of that Form $ but unlefs 
annihilated it is ftill the Matter of another Form. For 
one Body to be annihilated, and another to take its place, 
is not for the one to be changed into the other. Anni- 
hilating andTranfubftantiating are Contradictory. 

j. It is a Contradiction for Bread and Wine to be 
turned into ChrihVs Flelh and Blood, and made his Body, 
whofe Body is not FleJhyQx Blood ; unlefs he have two Bo- 
dies, or one confifting of marvelous diflimilar and hete- 
rogeneal parts. That Chrilt's Body in Heaven is not 
Flefh and Blood at all,muft be-confeft by all true Expofi- 
tors of 1 Cor. 15.50. Flefl) and Blood cannot enter into the 
Kingdom of Cod. The Context flieweth that it is not Sin y 
but natural proper Flefh and B'ood that is there meant : 
And who will believe that glorified Bodies are Fle/h and 
Blood, whoever well considered, 1. what Flefh and 
Bloodily and for whatufe? 2. In what Region glorified 
Bodies du'ell ; and that the Inhabitants are every where 
Connatural to their Region. 3. That the Text faith 
The y are Spiritual Bodies. 

B And 


And if ChrifYs Body in Heaven be no Flefi or Blood, 
and his Bodv on Earth be both . then either he hath two 
Bodies, or very heterogeneous parts or one. 

4. It is a Contradiction to lay that there are Accidents, 
\\ hich are northe Accidents of any Subfbnce, (either of 
Breads C unit's Body, or any thing elfe : ) For, Accidentis 
ejje eft in efje, it is relative : The forefaid Author f. 96. 
hath told you, 1 . For Quantity a Pound, or Inch of no- 
thing • a long, or broad, or thick nothing • a Pint, or 
Quart of nothing, are Contradictions. 2. For the Num- 
ber of Wafers, or Cups of Wine,to put twenty, or forty, 
or an hundred nothings, is a Contradiction. 3. For Fi- 
gure, a round, or fyuare nothing, is a Contradiction. 4. 
A fweet nothing • a fiarp, or auftere nothing, inftead of 
Wine, is a Contradiction. So an odoriferous nothing - 
a rough, or (mooth nothing ; a red, or a white nothing . a 
nothing feated on the Altar more than another place, &c, 
all thele are Contradictions. 

5 .And he hath there fhewed you that it is a Contradicti- 
on for nothing to have real effects: for nothing really to 
nonrijhy and become Flefy and Blood in him that eateth it : 
yea, for nothing to be eaten 5 for nothing to turn to real 
excrements • for nothing to make a Man drunk, as Wine 
doth: God can do all that are works of Power, but to 
verifie thefe Contradictories, is no work of Power. 

6. God cannot lye, faith the Apoftle, and Nature it 
felf-, elfe Faith had no certainty at all, the formal Ob- 
ject failing. To lye, is to give falfe deceiving figns of the 
Matter, and ofthe Authors mind : And if Gods Natural 
Revelation to Senfe it felf be falfe, r yea to all Mens Sen- 
fes ; doth not that make a lye as well as a falfe Word, 
Prophefle, or Vifion ? God's Natural Revelations are 
known by all Men certainly to be his own, and fo are 
ft not 

not the Prophetical: All know that God made Mans 
Senje to be the Natural pcrceiver of Qenjible Objects, that 
as ienfcdj they might be perceived naturally by the Intel- 
lect : And fuppofing the Objetf, Sc*fe y Intellect^ and Me- 
dium duly qualified, if new we be deceived,/; -rural Reve- 
lation raileth, or is fjlle, and we have no remedy: So that 
to make God's Natural Revelation to Scnfe, and by Senfe 
to the Intellect, to be falfe to all the found Senfesin the 
World, is to make God, blafphemoufly, the greateft 
Lyar in the World • and this God cannot be, becaufc he 
is God. 

And now, I pray you what doth the Dsclrine of Rare- 
faclion and Condensation make againft any of this that I 
have faid ? Apply it to any one of thefe Contradictions, 
and try whether it will prove them no Contradictions? 
Though your definitions of them are ridiculous, ( xif-c, 
that Hare foci ion is a little ALitter under a great Quantity, 
and Condensation is % great deal of Matter under a little 
Quantity • and this you fay is the ancient and commonly re- 
ceived Definition ) yet this, were it fo, is nothing to our 
bulineis. Rarefaction maketh the Quantity of Matter no 
more^ but only more diffufed^ or extenfizr as to Space ; 
and Space and Quantity are not all one : And Cjndsnfati- 
on maketh not the Matter to be pf/f/i Quantity, but on- 
ly to poflefs lefs Space : You mew how great a Philofo- 
pher you are. But dpth Rarefaction make Occidents 
without a Subject, or Effects without a real Can/ 5 or Mu- 
ter lobe, sdded to Matter without augmenting it; or 
the lame Matter to be changed into other .Matter, and 
yet ceafeto.be the lame Matter it was - y or any of the reft. 
And what if a Spirit, which is circumfcriptivcly .in no 
pb.ee, may- be faid to be d?.fiuitiir ! y,^r p{rMi,%gliLin m> 
ny pi Ices at once ? Will you lay the fame of a Bod}', a/In 

B 2 

Co make Body and Spirit to be the fame I A Spirit is indi- 
•vifible, and ib is not Miner • but yet I make not this 
the Controverfie. I know not how near ChrirVs Body 
is to a Spirit, which is called fpiritual $ but if it be ma- 
terial, and yet in many places at once, it mull be by 
Parts • one Part in one place, and another part in another 
place. For a material Body not to pollefs its proper 
place according to its Quantity and Parts, is a Contra- 
diction : And whatever you will fay of C firings Heaven- 
ly Body, fure you will not fay that his fuppofed Flefh and 
Blood is not material, or a true Body : And therefore ei- 
ther Chrift hath as many Bodies , or elfe as many Pieces, 
or Parts of one Body, as there are Confecrated pieces of 
Bread, perhaps many Thoufand Miles diftant from each 
other. Yet I will confefs to you , that as if a Thoufand 
vifible Apples could grow on one fpiritual, or invifible 
Tree, they would be all Parts of that one Tree 5 fo if 
you could prove, that a Thoufand material vifible Hofts 
are united by appofition to one fpiritual invifible Body of 
Chrift as Parts, they would all be Parts of that one Body • 
but marveloufly heterogeneal. But what's all this to 
the forefaid Contradictions ? 

But you have recourfe to the Miracle of Chrift's incar- 
nation, to falve the Objection fctcht from senfe: But 
what mean you by that ? Did you think that it is Mira- 
cles that we object againft l or that every Miracle is a 
Contradiction, or contrary to well-qualified Senfe ? What 
is there in Chrift's Incarnation, Conception, or Birth, 
which is a Contradiction, or againft Senje, or Reafon ? 
There is indeed much that is above the reach of Reafon 
without Revelation 5 but nothing that is againft Senfe,or 
informed Reafon : For, what fhould it be ? Is it impofli- 
ble for God to impregnate a Virgin, any more than to 

• make 


make Eve ? Or is it impoflible for God to take a humane 
Nature into Union with the Divine • when as all things 
are Co neerly dependant on him, that he is, as they dy, i*- 
timior intimo mftro ? and it is harder to confute that Pla- 
tonift,who taketh God to be the Soul oftheUniverle, 
and all things to be as it were his Body and Accidents, 
than to prove it impoflible for him to be united too>;c 
What elle meant your Fanuicks, Fryar Benedicl. *4*gh 
in Regit! a perfect, to make it Mans perfection to believe 
that there is nothing but God ? 

And for the Doctrine of the Trinity, it is no more a 
Contradiction, than to hold that the Mental Nature or 
Spirit is informed by a Fertue or Faculty, which is One 
eQenttifly, and "three refpecJively, as to the Acts and o£- 
jetfs, viz. The F&cult.u-vitalis-atfiva r Intelleftiva & J'o- 
Iitiva • or, that the [enfitive Soul hath a formal Faculty, 
which is One and Three, viz,. Attiva y Perce^tiva, Appeti- 
tiva • or., that Fire hath a Trin-une power, Motive, il- 
luminative, ejr Calefactive, When Trinity in Vnity is 
imprinted on all Active Natures, will you find out a 
Contradiction in .it ? If it were Three Efjences, and yet 
hnt One Efjence • or Three Pcrjons, and yet but One Per- 
fon t in the fame fenfe and refpect, it were a Contradi- 
ction. And is here any deception of our well difpofed 
Senfes, or any Lye? Becaufe God hath many Works 
which furpafs the power of natural fecond Cauies, in 
their ordinary way of working •, and becaufe he hath ma- 
ny which we cannot know without fupernatural Revela- 
tion, will you thence infer that he may be the great De- 
ceiver of the World, and may deliver Contradictions as 
his Truth ? As if Miracles were all Lyes and Contradicti- 

You fay that Chrijl appeared to S. Mary in the fiape of a 



Gardner. And what of that ? Either diflana, or want 
of tight, or observation did hinder her from difcerning 
his proper Vifage, and then its nothing to our Cale • or 
eife he really ajjumcd a rifage different from that which 
1 he had formerly feen : And if lb, here was no decepti- 
on of Senfe, any more than in the apparition of an An- 
gel . nor no more than a Masked perfon doth deceive 
anothers Senfe,, becauie he would not be known . nor 
any more than when one knoweth not his old Friend, 
when Age or Sicknefs hath changed him. 

Pag. 4. You did with a neceffary craft pafs over your 
Victors Explications of the Myftery, as knowing that 
they do but detecl the Contradictions. 

You here tell us of £ [ome of the learnedeft of the En- 
g/ijb Clergie (or Church) that confers the holy Euchari^ af- 
ter Confccration, to be really and truly our Saviours Body, 
and therefore fall down before it, and adore it 5 and for this 
caufe difown the New Rubrick of the Common-Prajer Book, 
which faith } our Lords Body is in Heave n, and not on the 
Altar. The fe Doctors will tell you that they aeknowledge 
the thin?, only they dare not be fo bold as the Romanics to 
determine the manner. And one of the learnedeft of them, 
Mr. Thorndike, asks, why cannot onr Saviour appear to us 
in what jhape he pleafeth, in the jhape of a Gardner, or if 
it fo pleafe him, in the [k ape of Bread and wine ? ] 

To which I anfwer, 1 . That New Rubrick is but the 
Old reftored : So you call our Religion New. 2. Thole 
may well pafs with you for the mo ft learned, who pleafe 
you belt, while you confer Degrees. 3. Such as you 
teach men to refute Kneeling at the Receiving of the Sa- 
crament, (as one oi you that is mentioned in the Life of 
Biihop Hall) by thus perfwading men, that the Englifli 
Clergv believe Tranliibftamiation, and adore according- 

ly. 4. Either you (peak true or falfe of the le.vncr- 
the Engl/jh derate : liftlje, it is an ill ihelter for j 
other Falihoods : If true > what regard ihou Id we have 
of the judgment of fuch Clergy-men, as declare their 
Ajjent and Consent to all things contained in and prefcri- 
bed by the Book of Common-Prayer) and Articles of Reli- 
gion, and yet dtfown the Rubrick, and believe Trxnfuh- 
ftantiation, and adore the Eucharifl as chrijis Body ? Why 
do you not call fuch the Roman Clergie, rather than the 
EngL\h clergie, if they differ from you but only in a 
want" of boldness to determine the manner, while they ac- 
knowledge the thing 1 What if a Bilhop Bramhall will 
have the Pope to be Principium U nit at is . and take Gro- 
t'ws to be of the mind of the Church of England, (who 
would have Rome to be the Miftrels Church, and the 
Pope the Univerfal Governour, according to the Canons 
of Councils^even the Council of Trent h ) muft we there- 
fore itoop to fuch mens judgment? Or might you not 
as well tell us, that CaJJander, or Milctcrim, yea or 
Bellarmine } were of your mind ? And whats that to us ? 

Your lecond AfTertion is [_lf our Saviour would have 
left us his facred Body and Blood, in^ead of all the Sacri- 
fices of Sheep andOxen^ under the Mofaical Di r pe nati- 
on s, to be offered up by Ghriftian Priejfs, and to bf fed up- 
on by the Chriflian People, it would have been a favour 
worthy of his exceffive love to mankind, by reafon of the in- 
numerable benefits) &c. 

An\w. 1. If he had only left us his Body and Blood, he 
had not deceived all mens Senfes, nor impofed any Con- 
tradictions on our Faith. 

2. If he had done fo, his choice would have taught 
us to take it for a benefit, becaule his Wildom is fitted 
todifcern, and to denominate it. 

2. To 


j. To leave us that Body which was true fie ft and 
Bloody capable of breakings jhedding, fain, and death, is 
one thing ; and to give us his glorified Body y is another 
tiling : This is not capable of breaking, fhedding, pain, or 
death, being a (piritual, immortal, incorruptible Body. 
Therefore indeed, the Eucharift is chrift s Body and Blood 
reprefentative, but not of fuch a Body as he hath now 
glorified, but fuch as was truly Flelh and Blood, which 
he once offered •, the benefits of which Sacrifice are real- 
ly given us in and by the Eucharift. But to have left us 
a Body to be broken and flain, which cannot be flain, 
and Fleft and Jflood which is not Fleih and Blood, but fpi- 
ritual, is a Contradiction. But if Chrift have two Bo- 
dies, or one confifting of parts fpiritual, glorified, and 
of real Flefli and Blood, then indeed one part of this may 
be ftill a Sacrifice. 

4. But taking it ( as you here do ) abftra&edly from 
Gods Will, and as in it felf confidered • what reafbn can 
you give us, why Chrifi's true offering of himfelf in Sa- 
crifice once for all, fhould not be as great a Benefit and 
Love-Token, as our offering him daily t The holy Scrip- 
ture (ffeb. 10. 14. telleth us, that \^by one offering he 
hath perfected for ever them that are janffified~\ and v. 
10, ii, 12. that by the mil of God we are fanclified 
through the once offering of the Body of Jefus Chrift : and 
every Priefl ftandeth daily miniftring^ and offering often- 
times the fame Sacrifices, which can never take away fins; 
but this Man after he had offered one Sacrifice for fins, for 
ever fate down on the right-hand of God."] But you will 
tell us what a benefit it would be to offer Chrift often ? 
Doyou really break, wound, hurt, and kill him in your 
offering, or do you not? If not, how is it a Sacrifice? 
and how is he the flain Lamb of God that taketh away 


the fins of the World ? And what Sacrificing, or fatis- 
fti&ory life can it have, to be offered without breaking, 
hurt, or death? Is it a livings ox dead Body of Chrift 
that you offer? If 'a living Body unhurt^ it is none of 'the 
Sacrifice the Scripture mentioneth of Chriil: And how 
is it propitiatory for fin ? If it. be a dead Body y was it ever 
alive? If not, 'tis not Chrift 's : If yea, who kille tb him I 
And if it be his living, glorified, impaffible Body that you 
offer, how unlike is that to Chrift 's offering ? And why 
calleth he the Bread and wine, his Bodj and Blood, which 
a glorified Body is not ? It's molt evident that Chrift 
fpeaketh of his Offering Body^ and not of bis glorified Body 
that cannot fuffer : And if lb, lliall we tell God what a 
benefit it would be to /*•, if every Pried may become as 
the Jews, the killer of Jefus Chrift ; that he may break 
his real Fleih, and let out his real Blood ? Chrift did not 
this himlelf. He contented to be killed, but he killed 
not himlelf. And what Man of Senfe can doubt but he 
fpeaketh of a Reprefentative Body, and Blood at his laft 
Supper, when his real Body was not broken, nor flain, 
nor his Blood, till after ; unlefs Chrift had two Bodies, 
one firft killed by himfelf, and eaten by his Difciples -, 
and the other killed after by the Jews. 

I marvel whether any Papift believe in his Confcience, 
that Pe ter y and John, and the reft,did believe at that Sup- 
per, that they did eat Chrift's real Pleih, and drink 
his Blood ? What, they that did not underftand before 
his Refurreclion that'-he w r as to dye as a Sacrifice for fin, 
and rife again, though he oft told it them ? For fo ex- 
prefiy faith the Text, John 12. 16. Luke 18. 31,51, 
33,34. and 24. 20, u. If it had been believed by them, 
why is there no mention of any of their wonder at iiich 
a Miftery, as that their Saviour lhould at once be in their 

C Belly, 

EcMy, and in tfteir- fight ? I caw- fcarce believe that Mar* 
that faith hebelievctfh thnt they believed that then they 
did eat Chrift's very Flefli and Blood. But perhaps fome 
of you will take up a late ftart Conceit, that Chrift at 
his Iaft Supper did not ce,'ebr.--ie,but only institute that 
Sacrament : which I am afhamed to (lay to anfwer. 

For our parts, we take it for- a greater mercy that 
Chrift doth reconcile us to God, and- put away our fins, 
by once offering himfelf in Sacrifice, inftead of the old 
Sacrifices that muft be often repeated, than if he had bid 
us kill, or break, or offer his real Body and Blood often. 
And we take it for a greater mercy that we may d uly 
offer this Reprefentative Body and Blood, and Commemo- 
rative Sacramental Sacrifice, than to have broken the 
real Body of Chrift our felves daily, and med his Blood. 
But I wonder not that they that can believe, or take on 
them to do it in fpite of all Mens Senses, can do it al fo in 
fpight of Scripture, Reafon, and Conscience t 

Iconfefs there is fomething in what you fay, p.j. It 
would have been an incentive to munificence in adorning 
Churches with the richefl Gold and pretious S tones ? and 
whatever elfe that*s rare and fplendid- 7 and alio to en- 
rich and magnifie the /V/W/.thatcan inftrumen tally make 
God of Bread, and Sacrifice him when he hath done h or 
fet him on the Altar, or keep him in a Box. But 
to the entertaining of Chrift into the heart by Faith and 
Love, a Reprefentative Sacrifice feemeth more meet for 
us to exercife : And Chrift faid to Thomas, hlefjed are 
they that have not fee n, and have believed. 

Your third Affertion is, that [ The Bread and wine in 
the holy Ettckarift, are by the Omnipotent Power of God actu- 
ally, and indeed changed into the Body and Blood of our blef- 
•ed SavhurJefmCbri fi. 



Anfw. This is to the ptirpofe if it be' but proved. 
But, alas, where is the Proof? Why you give us iuch as 
you have, and we can expect no better from you. You 
fay {_ This mas the Univerjal Belief of -the chri'fun world 
in the ninth Century."] How prove you that ? Very eaft* 
ly in your own conceit 5 ziz. lay you £ It . • evident fy the 
Tejiiwom of nil the Writings of that 5*g<.,| and by the Uni- 
verjal Tejlimony of the tenth Age • nor do oar A.iverJ-trics 
deny it."] 

A;;Jn\ 1. All thefe three are falfe: Neither all the 
Writings of the ninth Age, nor the Univerfal Tcltimo- 
ny of the tenth, faith it 5 and your Adverfaries do de- 
ny it. 

2. But was there not fome lorry neceflfity that put you 
to begin your Proof lb low as nine, or ten hundred Years 
after Chrilt? Methinks you Ihould have feared , lelt this 

yiflxLb have opened all the deceit. 

3. Your Adverlaries challenge you to nunc one Book 
that ever fo much as named Tranlubltantiation, before 
one Stephanie fcduenfis after the Year, nco, which 
was neither in the ninth, nor tenth Century, and vet you 
have not done it to this day* and yet go on to talk at 
this rate. And they challenge you to name one General 
Council that ever determined for. either Narks or Tin, 
(that the Bread and Win:; are changed into the very 
Body and Blood of Chrift, and are no. longer true Bread 
and Wine j before the Council at the I+at-erane m^ome^ 
under Inncc.^. Anno^ 121 5. which furew as neither the 
ninth, nor tenth Century. Can you givers no earlier 
proof that ever any Conncil mentioned it ( when Coun- 
cils are your Religion ) and yet deceitfully talk with con- 
fidence as you do ? 

4. But fupnor e the twelfth Century^ or thirteenth, had 

C 2 been 


been the tenth . let us hear your Inference; You fay, 
£ Then it mufi necefjarilj be taught in the firfi Age by the 
Apoftles } to their firfi Converts over all the world ^ andcon- 
fequently be mofi certainly true : For it cannot be doubted 
but that tne firfi Converts did under fl and what was taught 
them, believe and efleem it as highly nece[j..ry to them and 
their Children^ — Then none can doubt tut that they 
could and would and did teach the very fame Doctrine which 
they fo highly esteemed^ eye. 

Anfw. Thus- iome over- wife Pcrfonscan fit in their 
Clofets ? and tell from moir real Caufes, what^nc doubt 9 \vas 
done in all Ages of the World : And why can you not 
as infallibly prophefie from fuch Caufes, what will be 
done, and fo get the reputation of a wife Man indeed ? 
As one that would infallibly foretel that his Party fhould 
conquer in a certain Battel, becaufe they were, Men that 
loved themfel ves and their Country, and therefore would 
not wilfully deltroy, or defert both $ and therefore would 
not run away -r For they know that more are killed when 
they fiye, than when they ftand to it ; and if they do not 
run, the Enemy will, as ordinary Experience fheweth ; 
ergo they rauft needs conquer. But when he. was asked 
why all the fame things might not be faid of theEne- 
mies,and when he fhortly heard, defaclo^ that the Enemy 
had got the day, his great Argument was i unanfwerably 
confuted; But let us come to the tryal. 

i . I will better argue from your Medium^againft you : 
The far greater!: part of Ohriftians in the World are a- 
gainft Tranfubftantiation at this day ^ therefore fo were 
their Fore-fathers, and their Fore-fathers, till you come 
up to the Apoftles. . 

That it is fo at this day requireth no better Proof than 
to have more knowledge in theftate of the World,, or 



more lion efty in reporting it than you have. Pag. if. 
you fay Q Tie whole World formerly^ in a manner^ Pa 
except a handful of Jews is now become Chr/(lian.~] Hol- 
der, Is this Man like to tell you what all the ChriiHan 
World held, in former Ages, from fuch a Medium as their 
latter Belief, that can no better tell what the Chriitian 
World is ? Look over the Globe, or Map of the World, 
and let this Man tell you which be the Countries that are 
Chriftian • and then take the Mcafure there of their Pro- 
portion your ft If. Or to lave you the labour, read any 
credible Author that reporteth it. Brienxood in his Eur 
quirics, one of the beit, tells us, after the naming of the 
leveral Countries of each Religion, that if you divide 
die Known World into Thirty Parts, nineteen are Pagan 
Idolaters , fix are Mahometans, and rive arc Christians 
of all forts : But this Man is not afliamed to fay, that, 
exceft a h.vjdftd of 'Jews, the wbo'e jvorld w a manner P>-~ 
gan, is new bee: ?n: Christian. All the Pagans of A t rica y 
and America^ and Afia^ and all the Mahometans are no- 
thing to him ; even rive fixth parts of the Known World. 
And, alas, how little probability is there that the term 
incegnits, the vaft unknown Regions, mould be Chriiti- 
an: fure if they were governed by the Pope, he would 
know them. He that can Tranfubftanniate all the Pa- 
gans, and Mahometans on Earth, into Chrihhans ?, and 
make Men believe that five parts of fix of Mankind are 
now of a Religion which they partly know not, and part- 
ly abhor, may not difpair hence to prove Tranluftanti- 
ation* But how many of this fixth part of the World 
are Papijls ? A Biihop Bromhall faith, that about the fifth 
part of the Chriftians of the World are Papifts : Others 
think about a fourth part, not meafuring by the large- 
nefs of their Dominions (for few in the King of Spain's 



weft-Indies are Chriftians ) but by the Number of Pro 
feflors. But the moft that ever I knew any underftand- 
ing impartial reckoner allow them, is to be the third part 
of Chriftians ; comparing them with the AbaJines,Cop- 
ties, Syrians, Armenians, Gregorians, the Greek-church, 
and Muscovites, and all the Protectants, &c. And when 
the Empire of Abaft ia was greater by many Kingdoms, 
and the Kingdom of Nubia was not revolted, and many 
great Countries of the Greek Religion were not yet turned 
Mahometans, the Papifts were proportionably much lefs 
a part than now. And though moft of thefe will fay, as 
we do,thatthe Bread and Wine are Chrift's Fleih & Blood 
(not which is in Glory, but which iv.rs Sacrificed for us on 
Earth ) yet few, if any, of all thefe do hold real Traniub- 
ftantiation. If he fay the contrary of them, Travellers, 
and Authors enow of their own can confute him : (How 
ihamefully they have changed the Mthiopick Liturgie, as 
to their (enfe 3 by the altering of one word Biihop Ufier hath 
(hewed from the true Copies $ and by fuch tricks they 
can, by a Printer, make all the World Papifts : and I 
would the Pope had no other fort of Subjects to uphold 
his Monarchy, than fuch as are fo made.) 

I appeal now to any impartial reafon, whether I may 
not better argue againft Tranfubftantiation, becaufe two 
or three parts of the Chriftian W r orld are againft it, than 
he can argue for it, becaufe a third ox fourth part are now 
for it, or were fo in the twelfth, or the tenth Century. 

But perhaps he will fay, that tley are of the fame Reli- 
gion that they ever vcere, but Jo are not the Proteflants. . I 
aniwer, i . The Proteftants will not undertake that none 
of their Anceftors from the beginning were in this, or 
other points, erroneous : If the Papifts will, it is fuitabJe 
to their other undertakings : But that we are of the fame 


Religion which all true Chriftians were of from the be- 
ginning, the [iime B.ipt/Jm, the fame Creeds the Cam :.. . .' - 
Prayer and Decalogue, and the fame Scriptures, owned, 
fliew : and the Lords-Supper Adminiftred in the fame 
words as Chrift and his Apoftles and the ancient Chur- 
ches did. 2. But if the Proteftants had not been of the 
fime Faith with their Anceftors^ what's that to the reft 
that are more than all the Panifts ? It's notable to read in 
their Godhnw ae rebm Ai^fjiinerum^ how an old Woman 
( the Emperors Mother ) eonfuted,or baffled the Learned 
papift that came with Oiic.w to pervert them to the 
Pope; by pleading the Tradition of their Fore-fat' 
that had delivered them their Religion, and never told 
them of the Pope. And how tenacious the Greeks are 
of their Religion as received from their Fathers, their 
very ftitfnefs againft the Roman Infertion of [_Fiuoq h ] in- 
to the Creed, fiifficiently iheweth. 3. hut that really 
the Papifts are Innovators, and have changed the old Reli- 
gion in this Point,as \\ e have oft fully proved out of Anti- 
quity^ io we need no other Proof than the exprefs words 
of'Scripture • which ( to pal's by the reft ) in one Chap- 
ter in the three next Verfes 1 Cor. 11. 26, 27, 28, ) doth 
three times call it Q Bread ] after Confecration. And I 
never met with a Writer fo impudent as dare deny but 
their leaving out the Cup to the Laity in the Lords- 
Supper is a change from the antient Practice of the 
Church. And yet will this Medium ferve our Rational 
Difcourfer ; The prefect church 'caret h out the Cup*, ergo 
fo did their Fore-fathers^ and fo did the Apoftles ? And 
let him tell me, with the Face of a Man, if he can, whe- 
ther he think in his Confcience that our Anceftors, or 
the firft Converts of the Apoftles, were not more likely 
to underhand and remember vphether the Bread and Cup 


were both delivered by the Apoftles, or the Bread alone, 
than to underfland and remember in what fenfe it was 
that the Bread and Wine was called Chrift's Body and 

In fum, i. We believe that all true Chriftians have 
the fame Religion which was firft received from the Apo- 
ftles. 2 . We are fure that they kept not all the fame Pu- 
rity, and Integrity of that Religion- As fome fell quite 
away to Paganifm, and Mahumatanifm, and fome to 
Arrianifme, and other Herefies 5 fo fome that fell not fo 
far, fell to lefler Errors. 3. And we do undertake to 
prove, contrary to this Difcourfer, that the generality of 
the Churches for many Ages, and the maft of the Chri- 
ftian World to this day, held not, and hold not Traniub- 

II. I farther ufe his own Argument againft him; At 
this day, the greateft part of the Churchy by far, and in 
the fourth Century, that which they themfelves call the 
Universal Churchy denyed the Pope's Primacy ( much more 
his Soveraignty ) to be of Divine Inftitution : Therefore 
fo did the firft Converts of the Apoftles. If the Conie- 
quence be good in your Cafe, it is much more in this. 
1 . You falfty feign all the Church to have been for Tran- 
fubftantiation, but I (hall undeniably prove what I urge 
them for, as being againft the Divine Inftitution of the 
Romm Primacy. 2. And this is a Point likelier to be com- 
monly underftood and remembred, than the meaning of 
the words [ Body and Blood,] I prove the Antecedent. 

1 . That moft Chriftians now are againft it, is a mat- 
ter of Fad commonly known : Two or three parts of the 
Chriftian World being no Subjects of the Pope at all, 
viz. Thofe before mentioned. 2. That in the fourth 
and fifth Century the Church was of this judgment, ap- 


peareth by the raoft exprefs words of one of the four 
Great General Councils, even that at C&lcedon, which 
faith, C Definitions [anctorum Patrum [eqnentes ubiq^ & 
Regulam, & que nunc relecia font 150 Deo amxntijfimo- 
rum Epifcoporum, qui Congregate \11nt fub pit memori* Im- 
peratore majore Tkcodofio in Regit Civitate Conftantmop, 
nova Roma, Cognefcentes & nos eadem dcfintvimus de pri- 
vilegio ejufdem fanc/ijj. Conjlantinop, Ecclefi.e, nov* Romx: 
Etenim fedi Jeniwis Rom.e.propter Imperium frvitatis iUim , 
Patres confequenter privilegia reddiderunt : ejr eadem in- 
tent ione promoti 150 Deo amantiff. Epifcopi *qua fani'tif- 
ftm* fedi nov£ Rom* pnvilegia tribuerunt, rationahtliter 
judic antes Imperio cjr fenatu urbem or n at am aqu/s fenioris 
Regit Rom£ privileges frui7\ that is [_ " We following 
" alway the definitions of the holy Fathers and the Ca- 
" non, and knowing thofe things which now have been 
" read of the 1 5 o Bilhops moft beloved of God, that were 
u Congregated under the Emperour, of pious memory, 
" Tbeodo/ius, the greater, in the Royal City, Conflantino- 
<c pie, New Roweyhwe our felves alio defined the fame 
" things concerning the Priviledges of the fame moft ho- 
" ly Church of Confiantinoplc^ New Rome : For, to the 
lc Seat of Old Rome, becaufe of the Empire of that City, 
"the Fathers confequently gave the Priviledges: And 
"the 1 50 Bilhops moft beloved of God, being moved 
" with the fame intention, have given equal Priviledges 
u to the moft holy Seat of New Rome . reafonably judg- 
" ing that the City, adorned with the Empire and Sen ite, 
" (lull enjoy equal Priviledges with Old Regal Rome ] 

Here you fee, 1 . That two of the four greatelt Gene- 
ral Councils concur. 2. That they profefs herein to 
follow the old Definitions, and Rule. 3. That they con- 
clude that Romes priviledges were given it by the Fathers. 

D 4. And 

4. And that becaufe of the Imperial Seat. 5. And there- 
tore they give equal priviledges to Conjhntinofle. 

The Teitimony is fuch as nothing but impudent vio- 
lence can put by: either they (peak true^or not: If not^then 
how come two of the greateft General Counoils fo quick- 
ly to falfifie the Tradition of the Apoftles ? Did they not 
understand what their Fathers had delivered to them ? 
or did they difefteem it, or forget it ? 

Ifthey'fpake truth, (as they did J you fee that Rome 
hath no priviledges, or primacy, from God's tnftitution, 
but (like Canterbury} in our Empire by the Princes 
and Fathers Gift. 

Which is ib fure, that he muft put off common Inge- 
nuity ,that confiderately will deny it-, having not only this 
Testimony of two Grand Councils.) but the continued 
opinion of all the Greek-Churchy even before their divifi- 
on from the Roman : For, let any Man rationally Anfwer 
me this Argument. {The whole Greek-Church knew 
that a Divine Invitation wis to be preferred before a Hu- 
mane : The whole Greek-Church knew thAt Constantino- 
ple was not by Divine , but by Humane Institution^ m.ide 
Patriarchal or equal with Rome, and yet were for its 
Patriarchate and equality , if not priority : Therefore the 
whole Greek-Church j'tdged Romes Patriarchate and Pri- 
macy to be of Humane^ and not of Divine Injtitution. I 
havelarglier proved this elfewhere. 

IIT. I give you another Argument with your own 
Medium. [ The Universal church in the time of theCoun- 
cils o/Conftance and Bafil, judged that a Pope might be a 
wicked Heretick, and as fuch be deposed • and that it is de 
fide, that Con-nils have power fo fo do : ErgOythis was the 
Doctrine of toe Apo[lles to their Convert s7\ And yet the 
Councils at the Liter a /rf- under Leo the Tenth, and Flo- 


re nee ,deter mine that the Pope is above a Council. What 
Self-contradiftors now do you make the Apoftles to be ? 
How could the Councils of Bafil and Cvnftance believe 
that Councils are above the Pope, and that he may be a 
fallible wicked Heretick, unlets they had received it down 
from the Apoftles? And how could the Councils at the 
Litter ane^ and Florence, judge the contrary, unlels they 
had received it down from the Apoftles ? Will neither 
Reafon nor Experience make you amamed of cheating 
the World by fuch filly Inferences? 

IV. But yet I will come nearer you ; The fame Gene- 
ral Council at the Ltter/we, fab Innoc. :. which tirft 
decreed for the Belief of Tranfubftanti.uion, did in the 
very next Canon and words, decree, That all Temporal 
Lords mould exterminate from their Dominions all iiich, 
as Hereticks, that denyed this Tranfubftantiation h and 
if they did not exterminate them, lliould be excommuni- 
cate by the Pope ; and if yet they did it not, the Pope 
lliould depofe them,, and ablblve their Vaflals from their 
Allegiance, and give their Dominions to another. Now 
either they had this by Tradition from their Anceftors, 
and lb from the Apoftles, or not : If not, whv mould you 
dream that the Council had the fecond Canon from the 
Apoftles j, and not the third? If yea: Then, i. We fee 
what we muft expect from your Religion : The King 
muft exterminate all Protectants (and other Decrees far, 
Burn them) or elle be depoicd himfelf. To extermi- 
nate us ail, will bealmoftto depofe himfelf. Kind Sir, 
whither Hiall we all go? or who mall burn fa many ? It 
will be a greater Incendinm than that of London \ or South- 
vcark : And who ihall be the Kings Subjects ? Who mall 
Plant England anew? The French, Spaniards, or //. tit- 
ans ? But wliat if in this fortunate Ifland the) a![o mould 

D 2 awa- 

C 2<* ) 

awaken and turn Proteftants $ mufi; the King be to feek 
for new Planters to be his Subjects ? 

As Bene diet us spixo[a r who affaulted the Scripture, 
did at once alfo affault all Civil Government • and taught 
men, that he that could get the Crown had beft right to 
it i, and that a Man may kill any that ftand in the way of 
his defires, and break any Vows when they are againlt. 
thofe defires ( which are his Intereft, ) God mercifully 
ib ordering it, that he that will depefe Chrift, mall with 
him be permitted to depofe all Kings and Governours • 
Even foGod in mercy to preferve Princes, in theirwits, 
from turning Papifts, hath permitted the fame Men that 
firft by Council, condemned common Senfe, and made 
God the deceiver of Senfe, and of the Worlds and new 
brought Tranfubftantiation into the Faith, to make a 
Decree alfo ( fuch as never Turks, or Canniballs made ) 
That all Men that will not renounce all their Senfes (that 
isj> their animality, and their humanity) (hall be extermi- 
nated -, and all Princes depo fed that will have fuch (as 
renounce not humanity) for their Subjects. 

Several things are faid to this, by Men that think that 
if they do but open their Mouths, and fpeak, though 
it it be to prove that Murder is Mercy and Piety, they 
have conquered. 

i. Say fome, Tou fee the King of France^ nd others , do 
not [o. Anfw. i. \ithey may be good Cxtbo'icksthzx. re- 
bell againft the Pope and a General Council, why may 
not we ? 2.1 fpeak not of what any of you do, but what 
your very Religion bindeth you to do : Are not Councils your 
objective Religion? By the fame Lavp And Religion then, 
that Tranfubftantiation was firft. decreed, if it rule in 
England, we are all in Law exterminated, or dead Men 
( except the Papifts ) or clfe the King muft be no King. 



Can you fay in Confcience that your Anceftors had this 
from the Apoftles ? If you will, let Kings, that love your 
Tradition, take it. 

a.Butfome fay,thatthefe were no Decrees of the Coun- 
cil, becaule they were but propofed in haite by Pope 
Innoc. and not patted by the Council. This help 
Bilhop Taylor, Bilhop Gunning, and Bilhop Pi-rfon ^ in 
kindneis, would give the Papifts ; but unthankful Men 
will not accept it : And therefore the Anfwerers to Bilhop 
Gunning and Bi&QP ficrfan prove the contrary, as Mr. 
Dodwem hath unanfwerably done lately at large:And what 
ever it was in it felf, it was a General Council to the Pa- 
pifts, and is part of their Religion, who number it with 
the approved ones. And Math. Pans faith but this, that 
Q many Decrees were propofed, or brought in by the Pope, 
which fome Hied, andfome dijliked~] and yet the Major 
Vote might pals them: See alio Nancler,Gcn 41. an. 
1 2 I 5 . G ode f rid ad An. 121}. P latin, in Vit. Innoc. f . 

3. Others fay, that thefe were but Decrees of Practice 
and Difcipline, and not de fide • and therefore the Pope 
is not here Infallible, nor his Council neither. But Men 
that will not take a found of Words for their Eftates, 
Lives, and Souls, may foon anfwer this. 1. That 
though there be many things to be believed, that are not 
to be done - yet there is nothing to be done but what we 
mult firft believe that it may, or mufi be done. When it 
is laid, Thou (halt love God and thy Neighbour 5 it is in- 
cluded, that, Thou muft believe it thy Duty to love God 
and thy Neighbour : So he that faith |" Hereticks mail be 
exterminated, and Temporal Lords that will not do it 
ihall be depofed, and their Dominions given to others ] 
doth include, that [ To do fo is a Duty, or Lawful at leaft.~\ 
Sure it is not confeffedly decreed that the Pope ihall fin, 



ot 4 that Temporal Lords lhall be dcpoled by him for any- 
thing but fin, in their Affertion. 

2. If you grant that a Pope and General Council are 
Fallible about Duty and Sin, even in depofing Princes, 
and diffolving their Subjects Oaths of fidelity, how lhall 
we know that they are Infallible in matters of Faith ? He 
that is deceived in faying, Thou muftobey the Ten Com- 
mandments, may be deceived in faying, Thou flialt be- 
lieve the Creed : If we cannot be fure by the Churches 
Propofal that God is to be loved • how fliall we that way 
be fure that he is to be Lelicved, and that the Scripture is 
bis word. And if the Pope may excommunicate and de- 
pofe Princes,and change Dominions by errour h how can 
I be fure that he may not lay by errour, that this Bread is 
no Bread, and this Wine is no Wine. 

3. Is it only matter of Faith, and not matter of Fact 
that you have by fure Tradition ? Is not matter of Fact (as 
ChrifiVs Birth, Death, Refurre&ion, and Afcention) al- 
io matter cf Faith ? And is not this in quertion a matter 
of Fact, viz. Whether, de facto, the Apojrles told the firjl 
Converts^ that Bread after Confecration was no Bread, 
and that this was the meaning of ChriiVs words [ This 
is my Body ] which you aflfert ? And it's matter of Pratt ice 
that Men mull receive it in this ihnie. But if the Coun- 
cil may be deceived in this, and make (uch Laws for ru- 
ining Princes and Nations, which yet they were never 
taught by their Fore-fathers- why may not the fame 
Men lay [ Bre td is no Bread ] without being taught it by 
their Fore-fathers. 

4. Will you give it us under your hand, that this 
Council and Pope did err in this, and are not to be obey- 
ed, that Princes may have fo much notice of your trufti- 
ncis ? But what Council hath ever fince declared that 


this Pope and Council erred in this j name it me if you 
can? No, they will be guilty of no fuch Contradictions 
as (hall fignifie repentance and amendment. 

5. In the mean time, is not the Pope and bis C 
by this Decree, declared Enemies to all Proteftant Princes, 
and People \ What can any proclaimed Hoftility do 
more^, than thus by your higheit pow er to Decree Exter- 
mination of all the Peopleyind Depofition of their Lords' 
And is not he to be taken and uled as* a Publick ProfeiTed 
Enemy, who foprofeflfethhimfelf? Are you not all vir- 
tually in continual Arms -igainJt us, who make the De- 
crees of fuch Councils your Religion ? 

V. And why might not an Arnan have argued as you 
do, when they had their General Councils, and the 
World groaned to find it {elf turned Arrian y faith a Fa- 
ther? Might they not at Ariwinum and Ftrmium have 
laid;, How can we believe it y unless our Fathers had it 
from trie Apojlles ? And I fuppofe you know ( elfe Sondi- 
us will tell you ) that the Arruns pretend as confidently. 
to Tradition as the Papifts do. And your own Dionrf. 
Petaviw hath cited lb great a Number of the antienteft 
Fathers and Writers, who fpeak words too plainly fa- 
vouring of, or fivouring Arrianifm, as will tell any 
Man that their pretenfe is not without iuch a colour of 
proof, as is as plaufible as any you can bring for the Tra- 
dition of Tranfubftantiation at the lead. 

VI. I pray you tell us which way was Traniubftanti- 
ation delivered down from the Apoftles ? By writing, 
or without-book^ ly word alone ? If by Writing, are not 
thole writings yet extant ? And cannot we read them as 
well as you? You tell us that all the Writings of the 
ninth, or tenth Age (hew it ( which is falfe.) But if the 
Writings of the firft eight hundred years (hewed not the 

lame . 


fame thing to them^ how did they know it ? If by bare 
words^ can you make your (elf believe that b*re yvords^ 
and Memory , will as furely convey down from Age to 
Age, the Myfteries of Faith, as written Records will do ? 
Do you not daily find, that if Men are but to repeat a Ser- 
mon, yea a few Sentences^ how apt they are to alter, or 
omit, or add fome words which alter the whole fenie ? 
I feldom hear a Sermon reported, but fomewhat of it is 
mif-reported ! yea, we can fcarce have a matter of Facl; 
reported without great diverfity and mif-reports • which 
makes the common reports of Perfons, and Things, in 
City and Country;, to be fo full of falihood, and uncer- 
tainty. Mens Memories are flippery, and the alteration 
of a word, may make the matter another thing. Send 
but your Servant to do a meflage, or bufinefs for you , by 
bare word and memory • and at another time Write him 
down all that he mall fay, or do 5 end try which way will 
occafion more miftake i Why do you keep your Bonds, 
Bills, Covenants, Leaies, Deeds, and Teftaments in 
Writing elfe, and do not truft them to Mens Memories ? 
Why are our Laws Written, and Court Records kept, if 
Memory will keep them better? Had we no Books, or 
Records, one Lawyer would fay one thing, and another, 
another things and there would be nothing but uncer- 
tainty and confufion. Why do fo many Preachers ufe 
Sermon Notes ? Why do you caufe all your Mafs, even 
the Hoc e(l Corpus meum to be read out of a Book, and 
truft not your Mafs -Priefts to repeat them by Memory ? 
Befides, that, Men Write more deliberately, and accurate- 
ly ,than ufually they fpeak-, and their fenfe is eafilier tryed, 
and reviewed. Where Mens Life and Death lyeth on it, 
Phyficians will hardly truft their Memories with all their 
Remedies h nor fend one to the Apothecaries without 

a writ- 

a written Bill, left the miftake of a word, or Dofij 
prove Death. 

VII. And I ask you farther, Is all the reft of your Reli- 
gion delivered, only, ormofi certainly >hy word of Month and 
Memory, or rather by Books ? Are not the Decrees of 
allyjur approved General Co/tnc ils for Faith and Practice 
your Religion \ And are not thefe written in Books ? 
Have Caranza, Cra 1 , Surius, Nicotines, Binius, the great 
and many Volumns of the French Edition, and ill the 
reft, been all written in vain? Do all your Lay-Papifts, 
or all your Priefts, or any of them carry all thefe in their 
Memories to a word ? Or are they there as lure as in your 
Books ? Doth Verbal Tradition now deliver down your 
Religion ? Nay, do you not Write your very Confcfions 
and Creeds ? If all your Books were burnt, would not 
your Religion be greatly changed, while much of the 
Decrees of Councils would be forgotten? and O what 
contention and confufion about them would there be? 

VIII. But if all your Religion was lo currantly deli- 
vered by word of Mouth by Fathers to their Children, 
what made the ancient Doctors pals by the fame things in 
their Writings?, when their Writings were purpofely to 
tell their Readers what was the Chriftian Religion, and 
the reafons of it •, would they leave out that in their de- 
liberate Writings, which every Child was taught by his 

iX.But what mean you to talk of all Parents delivering 
it to their Children? Do you mean all Priefts, or all Lay- 
men ? U Priefts had children, it's like they were Married 5 
And had you then the Celibate of Priefls by Tradition 
from the Apoftles ? If you mean Laymen, would you 
make Men believe any Story you tell them, contrary to 
the experienc of their daily Convcrfe ? Do we not fee 

E that 

that the far greater! part of Men, both among Papifts, 
Greeks, and Proteftants, have too lktle f;nie, or under- 
ftanding of Religion, to be accurate keepers of the lenle 
of Scripture ? Try your own followers in Ireland^ Spain, 
Italy, yea, or France, whether the generality of the 
Common People teach their Children, or understand 
themlelves, what a Sacrament is •, though your Induftry 
may teach them to Cant out inch words as you would 
have them lay in oppofition to the Proteftants. When 
we have much ado to get moft of the Vulgar to endure 
to be Catechited themfelves, and to understand the very 
Creed, and Principles of Christianity ^ do you fuppofe 
them competent preiervers of the myfterious lenle of fuch 
words as we are Controverting ? 

X. And if Tradition without Writing be fo fure, how 
cometh Tradition to be lb contrary ? The Millenaries 
pretended to Tradition from St. John 7 . Moft of the Wri- 
ters of the firft 300 Years feem for them. Yet I think 
you will fcarce confefs that this was indeed the Doctrine . 
of any Apoftles. 

XI. How long did the Opinion and Practice of Infants 
Communion prevail in the Church? Doth it follow 
therefore that they had it from the Apoftles? Why then 
do you difufe it ? 

XII. The Practice of not adoring, kneeling on any 
Lords-day in the Year, or any Week-day between Epfter 
and whit^ontUe, was indeed called the Practice of the 
Univerfal Church, and an Apoftolical Tradition 5 and 
was Decreed in the firft General Council at N 'ice , Can, 
20. If they had not this from the Apoftles, how prove 
you that your Tranfubftantiation is from them ? Iftjiey 
had, why have you changed an Apoftolical Univerfal 
Practice ? 

XUL And 


XIII. And if it was the Common Belief of the Church, 
why did never General Council mention it till 12 15 
Years after Chrift's Birth ? Was it becaufe it was com- 
monly known ? So were the Articles of Faith which the* 
do mention : And lure it is the Common Faith which 
they are to preferve and deliver. Unlels the}' were neg- 
ligent or forgetful, it was becauie no fuch thing was 
then believed. 

XIV. The ancient Churches profefled that their Creed 
contained all the necetfary Articles of the Chriftian Faith: 
And when Hereticks obfeured fome of them, they put 
the Expofition of them into their after Creeds. If Tran- 
fubitantiation then was a necetfary Article of Faith, how 
came it to be left out of all the Creeds ? 

XV. The fecond Council at Nice held Angels to be 
Corporeal, and that Images were not to be worshipped 
with Latrix: Yet Aqmnas^ md many others of you, as 
to the Image of Chrijt and the Crofs, dillent from them in 
the latter •, and the generality in the former : Had they 
thefe then from the Apoftles, or not ? 

XVI. Doth one of your General Councils, ( e.g. that 
at Ti •»;,) fignifie all the Chriftian World? 1. When 
they are oft but a few Men (not fifty fometimes ) and 
when one County or Diocets with us hath more Learn- 
ed Men. 2 . When they are a Fadion packt by the Pope, 
and his Agents. 3. When we know that it is ufually 
the Pope, Prince, or Arch-Bilhop, or Men of Power, that 
chufe the Members, though molt of the Clergy be oft 
for others, or have no choice. 4. When all the Papifts 
that lend to your Councils are not part the third part of 
Chriftians, and the far greateft part have no Delegates 
there. 5. When we know that a few Mens Intereft, 
and Speeches in fuch Aflemblies ufe to carry away the 

E 2 moft. 

C ; 4> 

moft. 6. When we know that they Life to differ among 
thcmfclves, and fometime carry a Caule but by a few 
Votes : And how fhall we be fure that if ninety fay one 
thing, and one hundred lay the contrary , that the ninety 
did not as well underftand the Tradition of their Fore- 
fathers as the hundred? 7. And when we, know that. 
Men are oft in Council bnrn down by fears, or hopes, or 
fair words, and repent when they come home, as the. 
Creeks did after the Council at Florence. 8. Yea, when . 
we know that they fometime fall into inhumane Fewds,, 
yea^ and fight it out to Blood • as the Cafe of Diofcortu 
againft Flavians proveth. And is this a certain* Tradi^ 
tion of what w r as delivered by the Apoftles ? 

Indeed Baptifm, the Creed, Lords-Prayer, Decalogue, , 
and the Eucharift have been delivered down by certain 
Tradition • But fo hath not every Controverne about, 
them, nor in particular^ .the Doclrine of Tranfubftan- 

XVII.' Read but Pet. MoUham de Nov it ate Papifmi^. 
or but the N on-con f or mifts late Morning Lectures on that . 
Point ; and you will fee how the Papifts have innovated 
in Religion^ and all their Errours proved Novelties : And 
fhall we think that fuch changers have kept Tranfubftan- 
tiation as from the Apoftles, that,could not keep one half 
the sacrament it fe If which they delivered them ? 

XVIII. How fhall the ignorant know whether this 
Vim fay true? that moft Books^ and moft Men were for. 
Tranfubftantiation in the. ninth and tenth Centuries? 
The time is paft, and the Men are dead : Muft he know it. 
by the Books of thofe Ages, or by the Teftimony of 
this Age ? If by their Books, 1 . How fhall he that hath 
read their Index expngatorim y and known their corrup- 
ting of Authors, be fure that thofe are not corrupted ? or 



monV of them as very Forgeries, as Merc at or s Decretals, 
and abundance of Spurious Writings ? fo proved by 
Cook, Blonde!!, Rivet, Ujher, and many more. Is it necefla- 
ry to Salvation that the Vulgar (yea, or the PrieftsJ 
have Co much skill in Hiftory as to know which way 
moil Men went for fo many Ages paftj in the Expofition 
of fuch a Text of Scripture ? What Man can tell now 
what mind molt of the World are of in feveral Myfteries, 
and Contrqyerfies between you and us? Who can tell 
how to take their Votes ? Much le's can every illiterate 
Man know what mind moft Men were of in former Ages -, 
and leaftof all to be able critically to judge of the Evi- 
dence, and what Authors are fpurious and corrupted, and 
what found. 2. Nay, whoever put lb much Cofmo- 
graphy into the Creed before you, or made it neceilary 
to Salvation,toknow that there is fuch a Place as Rome 
in the World ? 3. If Books muft decide that Cafe for the 
ninth and tenth Century, why not for the former alto ? 
And have not we all thofe Books as well as you? And 
yet we are confident that they are againft you. 4. But if 
it mull be by the Teftimony of the prefent Generation, 
whole Teftimony mud: it be that muft tell us what our 
Bore-Fathers held ? Muft it be by the Teftimony of a 
Council? 1. There is no General to enquire of, nor hath 
been long-, nor know we whether ever there will be? 
2. If it muft be by the Ufi Council, 1. How ihall the 
Vulgar know that it was a true General Council, any 
more than that of Epbef. 2. Bajil, Confiance^ ejre. 2. How 
know they what they did Decree ? They never faw, or 
heard them. If it muft be by the Printed Books, 
1. They cannot read them. 2. They know not 
whether they are forged , or falfified. 3. They 
know not the meaning of them. If it muft be by 

Reports^ by whofe Report ? Father Paul Servita maketh 
them a pack of Fellows that abufe the World, under the 
fhew of a General Council : He was a Papift. We can- 
not look for another Council to tell us what this Coun- 
cil faid. Muft men take the word of particular men ? 
Some accufe that Conncil- fomeownit: Whom fhall 
we believe ? muft it be every fin^e Priefl ? Then Father 
Paul mull: be believed againft them : And fome that turn 
from the Pope lay more againft them than he : And how 
fhall the People know that the Prieft faith true ? Perhaps 
he knoweth the Prieft to be a common Lyar, or perjured • 
at leaft, he knoweth him not to be infallible. If the Pope 
be infallible, none of you faith that each Priefl \$ (o: And 
we never faw or heard the Pope. If you fay that we 
muft believe the Priefts where they all confent : How 
(hall ordinary men know that, 'who never fee a Council, 
nor mxny of them ? If the major Vote muft be believed : 
who mall gather the Votes, and how {hall the People 
know them? In a word, I fee no way that you have to 
give men any aflurance what to believe to falvation, (for 
the generality that cannot travel over the World, nor 
get skill in Hiftory and Cofmography) but only to be- 
lieve that Prieft that fpeaketh to him • when perhaps he 
knoweth him to be a man that hath forfeited belief ; or 
at leaft is neither the Pope, Council^ Churchy nor pre- 
tendeth to infallibility. 

But fuppofe that the perfon be fo learned, as to be ver- 
fed in the Councils, How fhall he know by them what 
the former Ages held ? i . What Councils be they that 
he muft believe, and how fhall he be fure of it ? Is it the 
Councils aforefaid of Ephef. 2 . Bafil, Conflance, and fuch 
other? Thefe you reject, and many more. 2. Do any 
Councils tell him by Decrees, which former Councils 



were currant, and wliich not ? Sure they do not ; no, 
not the laft at Trent : So that it is not, de fide, with } T our 
felves, which are the true Councils, and which not. 
3, How doth a later Council know which former Coun- 
cils v\ ere true ? Not becaufc they find (o themfelves ; for 
then all would be true : If it be by any Characters, what 
be they, and why may we not know them ? 4. How do 
Councils know w hich way mod Writers went, or what 
they wrote? As it cannot be expected that theBi/hops 
that met at Trent lliould r v. member by Tradition what all 
the Chriitians in the world [aid or thought in every Age ; 
Co neither were all Writers words known to them without 
Book, by verbal Tradition. I pray you tell me trujy, 
whether ever any General Council took that way to 
prove what J#fti# 9 Tcrtuliixn, Cyprian, BaH, Gregories, 
Hit rem, A'lgrtfiine , Chry\o\kom, <y-c. laid and held, by 
mewing that they had it by Tradition from other Coun- 
cils Decrees, or their Fathers telling them lb, rather 
than by looking into the Writings of the Authors them- 
felves ? And your own Doctors commonly tell us what 
the Fathers held, by citing the Fathers words, and not by 
telling us, that either Councils, or their Fathers, or Mo- 
thers, or Nurfes told them whatthev ibid or held, [ex- 
cept in the common Effentials of Chriltiurity, the Sacra- 
mental Covenant, Creed, Lords-Prayer, Decalogue, and 
that the Scripture is Gods Word] which all Chriftians 
acknowledge are delivered tons, as by two hands, vir,, 
by verbal and practical Tradition, and by the Scripture 
it felf. 

But if it be the Prefent church real, (that is, the -con- 
fent of Chriftians) which mud tell us what was held in 
the former Ages (which for ought I find is it that you 
flye to -, ) though the ignorant cannot try this,all know- 

ing men can tell that this way you are utterly condemn- 
ed: For at this day, as is faid before, at leaft two third 
parts of the Chriftian World are againft your very Pa- 
pacy it (elf- and believe the ancient Churches to have 
been againft it: So that Tradition doth depofe the Pope. 
So that you have no way left, but to fay, 7/ is our own 
judgment or Tradition alone that we will jiand to. 

So much to your dull cheat, about your pretended 
Univerfal Tradition. 

Pag. n. You notably fay, \_Suppo[e a Book fully written 
as to all points to be believed by Chri'Hans, by the jirft 
Teachers of Chrij 1 ianity : Lst them together with this Book 
give charge to their Jjrjl Convert /, not to add to it, or di- 
minish it^ and to believe as in their Consciences they /half 
think that Book fhall teach them. Though Generation af- 
ter Generation be never fo faithful to fuch a Charge, yet 
th?y may in after Ages come to !ofe or change their Faith, 
becaufe the Book may jcem to one Generation to bear one 

fenfe, and to another Generation to bear another As 

theie words, This is my Body*, may fern to one Age to bear 
this fenfe, This is the sign of my Body, &c7\ 

1 . But you mult fuppofe alfo, that they that will learn 
this Book mult have Teachers: 'Elfe how will they fb 
much as read it ? We are for Teachers as well as you, 
though not for Judges that may judge in partem utramli- 
het. The Paftors may teach the People that there is a 
God, a Chrift, a Life to come 5 but cannot judge that 
there is none. And Teachers make known that fame Evi- 
dence of Truth to the Learner, by which they received it 
themfelves •, but do not fay, you muft believe that there 
is a God, a Chrift, a Heaven, meerly becaufe wefay fo. 

2. And you muft put into your Suppofkion, that (as 
is faid) the Effentials are delivered both ways, by wri- 
ting and by word of mouth, 3 . And 


3. And now fuppofe, that the Apoftles had put the 
lame expofitory words of {This u my Bcd<~\ into a Book, 
which they fpake by word of mouth? Had that been the 
lefs intelligible becaufe they were in the Book? Or the 
harder to beremembred? Or could that Age have deli- 
vered to the next any more, as from the Apoftles, than 
what they received ? And if that be the* fame written as 
fpoken, furc writing maketh it not the lefs or worle ? If 
it do, all your Religion is in danger, now it is written in 
your Volumns of Councils. Have you wore yetthats 
neceflary, befides all thofc Volumns, which you whif- 
pcr or deliver by word of mouth? If not, you profefs 
your Religion unfafe, becaufe you have written it. 

4. And indeed you here profefs, that the fidelity of 
fucceflive Generation cannot preferve Religion, by pre- 
ferving and delivering any Bouks.. And if io, then your 
prefcrvation of Fathers, and written Councils, and De- 
cretals, is no fufficicnt Tradition of the lenle of [This is 
my Bity.~] Could you ihew us your fenfe in them, it is 
an infufficieot Tradition •, for one may take your Coun- 
cils in one fenfe, and another in another. 

5. But do you indeed think that any Perfon or Coun- 
try is fecured from changing their Religion by your ver- 
bal way ? Why then did the Reformers when they were 
of your way forfake it ? Why did the Greek Churches dif- 
own you ? Nay, why did lb many ancient Churches 
apoitatize to Mahometanifm ? Was it for want of Verbal 
Tradition ? Hid they not the fame as you ? Sure no Law 
will fecure it lelf from being broken by miners, and no - 
Tradition is enough to prevent Apoftafie. But why the 
fame words fhould be lefs fufficicnt written bv the Apo- 
ftles, than/jM'-"# by them 5 or why Gods Writings mould 
not be as lure and clear in things of ncccifity, as your 

V Conn- 


Councils 5 or why your Councils ihould be infufficient, 
becaufe written ^ no impartial man can tell. 

But you fay further, [But no ten Families who have 
been taught by their parents* either to leliere that our Sa- 
viours Body is in the Eucbarift, or that it is not there ^ (you 
mould have (aid, in what fenfc it is there) can pojfbly 
miftake^ &cP± 

Dreams may feem fomething to men that are afleep : 
If God had written the fame words that my Mother 
fpake to me, why could not I have as well understood 
them ? Doth my Mother, or Father, or Prieft fpeak fo 
much more wifely than God? Sure not, if the words 
were the fame. But alas, can you keep us from know- 
ing, that you and we have ten thoufand and ten thou- 
fand Families near together, where the Parents never 
talk much to their Children about any fuch matters, nor 
catechize them, nor themfelves underitand them : When 
we ask many of the ignorant Papifts, whether they be- 
lieve that there is no true Bread and wine at all after con- 
fecration, they tell us that they do hold that there is, 
though yet Chrifts Body and Blood be there 5 which is 
but the Lutherans Coniubftantiation : And do you not 
know what Durandm taught in this ? and yet they that 
chide him excufe him from Herefie. And had Durandm 
never heard what ten Parents teach their Children ? 

You prefently ftab your Papacy to the heart, when you . 
fay [Seeing God Almighty is rejolved not to teach every Age 
by immediate infallible Mif/ionants from him j "elf , but to 
fend infpircd Ambafiadors to one particular generation only, 
wd to leave thut generation to teach their Children fuccef- 
fivelj till the day of judgement jvh at they learnt^&c. Thus 
muchisjuft the Proteftant Religion. But then what's 
iieeonie of thv infpired Infallibility of your Church? who 

though - 


though they underftood not the matter when they came 
to the Council, ( or though the Pope were an unlearn- 
ed Lad) yet prefently can infallibly expound Scripture^ 
and defide Controverfies. As you praile Mr. Thorndike^ 
you might have accepted of the kindnefs of one Mr. war- 
ley of Cam' 'ridge , in a Book lately dedicated to the Lord 
Chancellor, called, The Nstnral Fanatic:-, w ho will al- 
low the Church and Councils a higher way of certain 
determination, than by Reafa • and will tell you how 
doubtful its left to Realbn, whether there be a God, or the 
Soul be immortal^ and will curb men th.it will let their 
Realbn againft Councils or the Church. But to remem- 
ber and rehearfe only the words that the Apoftles deli- 
vered, is a work that Realbn may perform, without any 
infpired infallihiity. 

But if Tradition by immediate Parents, yea and Pa- 
tters be fo lure, the Aha$nes^ the Greeks, and many 
others, are fure that the Papacy is an Ufurpation : And 
fo were tlie old Britain* , and the Scots -, a little before 
Be da's time, who would neither conform to the Church 
of Rome^ nor fo much as eat with them. 

Pag. 42. You fay [if God Almighty will oblige me to 
believe what wxs taught 1600 years before I iv.:s born^ 
how [hould be expect I j hould come to the knowledge of this, 
but by fuch Books m were written in thofe times, and near 
thofe times, and by the tejiimony of all Chriilian Countries, 
what h&tb beat immcmoriallj believed by them, ever fincc 
they were C ? - ■•''•] 

Anfw. Well contradicted : This is our very Religion.: 
We fhnd to Fincent. Lcmienf. Rule, Qvodfempsr, ubique , 
ab . But, 1. Here then Books be not made 

ib unferviceable as before. 2. God, Almighty obligcth 
us firft to believe his or before any others : And 

F 2 how 


how {lull we more certainly know what Chriit did and 
commanded, than by thole that purpofely Wrote lb ma- 
ny Gofpels, orHiftorics of it, that we might believe and 
have Life by his Name. Sure the four Evangdiits and 
the Apoftlcs Wrote what they Wrote (even to the ig- 
iioraat ) to be understood and read. 3. We alio know 
by the Books written near thofe times what then was re- 
ceived by the Churches. And your Councils cannot 
know it ( nor your Pope neither ) by any other means 
than are known to others : for their extraordinary Inspi- 
ration we never fa >v caufe to believe. 4. And I remem- 
ber no one thing at all, which I do not receive, which 
hath the Testimony of all Christian Countries that it hath 
imm?mcrial'y been believed, by them ever ft nee they were 
ChriftUns ; nor lhall I reject fuch when you prove it. 
But that is, becaufe, de facto, I think there is no errour 
that hath fuch a kind of Teftimony ; and not becaufe I 
think it imfofftble : For as your part of the World is de- 
ceived, e.g. to think that the Roman Supremacy was infti- 
tutedbyGod, contrary to the judgment of alt the Greek 
church, andofthetwaforementioned General Councils 
at Conjlantinof.e and Cake don • fo I know not but it had 
been poflible to have brought all Countries to the lame 
deceit, or to have believed that chrift's Blood might be 
denyed the People in the Sacrament, as a thing received 
by Tradition. 

We believe that the true Church infallibly believeth 
what ever it believeth upon true Divine Revelation^and 
that it can never fall from the Effentials of ChrifUanity ; 
that is, that chriit- will (till have a true Church in the 
World till the end. But we know that in many things 
we offend all, and if every Mans will and Life is imper- 
fect, and culpable, then fo is every Mans judgment - 


. .C43) 

and there is no Man living without many errours, who 
hath the Exercife of Reafon • and the Church is Compel- 
led of fuch erring Individuals : And why it is not potfi- 
ble for them all to have thought that fome of their er- 
rours came down from the Apoftles (as the Millineries 
thought) I cannot tell. But whatever is truly proved 
to be delivered by the Apoitles as the Will of Chrilt, by 
Writing, or word, v.e will readily receive : And the Ei- 
fentials of chriili anity we believe, and can prove to have 
been both ways lb delivered . and fome things more, 
(, as the Lords-day, &c) t 

But you fav, pdg, 15. cc Can any imagine that 
c< they who exfofed their Lives for their Religion, would, 
{C if they could, Agrex together, [o notoriously to change it, 
iC as to m/lke them\elves mot grofs idolaters, ly ado 
cc Bread and wine, as the true Body and Blood of their C- c..» 
" tor, and God 7 .'] Anftv, No, bun wemiy well imagine 
tint good- Fathers may have bad Children, and that 
Children are not born with a. Chureh-hiftorv*, or Coun- 
cils v. ritten in their minds • and that worldly Clergy- 
men may deceive^ and be deceived ; and tint even pious 
Men might concur in the deceit: that is, Th.it the name 
ofchrifSs Body and Blood being juftlyfrom the begin- 
ning applyed to the Euchariir, as the Clergy grew for- 
mal, ceremonious, felfilh, and worldly, they neglected 
the explication of the fenfe andfpiritual part of the Sa- 
crament , and grew to over-magnifie the external figns 
in a way that tended to that advantage and honour to 
themlelves, which for want of Learning and Grace they 
could not by their worth attain : That the ninth and 
tenth Ages which you chufe for infhmce were as a 
Night of darknefs, having few Learned Men, in which 
he that was but skilled in Greek and Helrov was t\kcn 



for a Conjurer, or a Heretick^ other of your own Writers 
befides Bellarmine do acquaint you. That the Popes were 
ibme Boys, many Murderers, Simonifts, and moil horrid, 
wicked, and ignorant Men, many by one Woman 
brought in, and poyfoned after $ and that for forty Years 
there were divers Popes at once contending for their fe- 
veral Titles, almoft all Hiftories agree • That hence the 
World was filled with Treafcns, Rebellions, Perjuries, 
and all wickedneis, how many Hifbrians teftiiie . when 
the Pope hath been judged by a Council for a Heretick, 
and Adulterer, deflowering Women at his Doors. And 
is it incredible that fuch Men mould degenerate from their 
fore-fathers ? Or (hall a Fryar now come out of a Cell, 
and tell the World, that becaufe the firft Biihops oiRome 
were holy Martyrs, it was not poffibic for Pope John to 
be fuch a blafphemous filthy Villain 5 nor for Pope Euge- 
tiius to be damned as a Heretick and wicked Man by a 
^General Council, and yet continue Pope after depofiti- 
on: Gt fox Setgim to ule For mo fas as\\G did? Ifpeak not 
of rarities^ or doubtful things : The Popes gfeateft flat- 
terers lament them. Baroniits ad an. 912 faith \^*what 
" then was the Face of the holy Roman Church ? How ex- 
cc ceeding filthy when the mofl potent , and yet the mojlfor- 
u did whores did Rule at Rome ? by whofe pleasure Sees 
cc were changed^ Si/hops were given , and which is a thing 
cc horrid to be heard, and not to be fpoken^ their Lovers 
6Q (or Mates) were thruji into Peter's Chair^ being falfe 
u Popes , who are not to be written in the Catalogue of the 
cc Roman Popes, but only for the marking out of [itch 
cc times : And what kind of Cardinals^ Pricfts and Beacons 
cc think you we mufl imagine thefe Monjlers did chufe, 
" when nothing is fo rooted in Nature^ as for everything 
cc to beget his Ijh ? ] i ,1s not here a Succdfion fit to prove 


C 45) 

the Church of Rome to be the true Church? O happy 
Succdfion ! 2 . And is it impoflible that iuch Men as thefe 
iliould err ? and iuch Bifliops,Priefts, and Deacons fliould 
change one word that was delivered orally from their Fa- 
thers? Is not here a fure Foundation for a Man to build 
his Faith and Salvation on ? 

Gcnebrard mother: furious Papift (//'. 4. Seel. 10.) faith 
£ <c In this one thing this Age was unhappy^ that for near 
M an hundred and fifty Tears, about fifty Popes did wholly 
"fall away from the iertue of their Ance/lors, being ra- 
c< " ther irregular and Apolitical, than Apofiolic rl,~] Apo- 
ftates makean Apoftolical Succefllon of Infallible wick- 
ed Men. Reader, did not our Rational Difcourfer wife- 
ly chufe the ninth and tenth Ages for his ground- work ? 
Thefe are the very Ages whofeTeftimony he appealeth to. 
Pope Adrian ( after ) himfelf, ( de Sacram. Confirm. 
Art.q. faith, that there have many Popes of Rome been 
Hereticks. And as I faid, Pope John 1 3 alixi 1 2 was in 
Council Coniic! of Raiifhing Maids, wives, andwiddows. 
at the Apoftolick Doors, and of committing man) Murders, 
and he drank a health to the D.'vil ; and at Dice called for 
help to Jupiter and Venus, and at lafl was killed in the 
Act of Adultery, 

Saith their Platina Q He w.ts from his Youth a Man con- 
taminated with all d/jhonefy, and ftlthinefs 5 and if he bid 
any time to [pare from his Lvfls, he [pent it in hunting^and 
not in praying. — He faith, he wxs a mo ft wicked man, 0? 
rather a Monger. — And faith, \_ that the Life of this 
wicked Man being judged in a Council of Italian Bijhops, 
ftr fear of them he fed, and lived like a wild Beast in the 

Pope John 23 Was accufed and depofed by die Gene- 
ral Council at Conftance^ upon about feventy Articles^ 



which you may fee in Binnws in about thirteen Columns, 
viz. of Murders, Adulteries, Witchcraft, Simony, a 
Heretick, obftinately maintained that there is no Life 
after this 5 called commonly, The Devil incarnate . fafd 
the Soul w.rs extinH with the Body, & a Beafis • dcnyed 
the Rejur reel ion, &c. And for thefe the Council depo- 
fed him. 

So the great Council at £.</?/ depofed Eugezns the 4?^ 
as \_ a Rebel againjl the holy Canons, a notorious diftm ber 
and fcandalizer of the peaee and Unity of the Church • a 
Simonijf ; a perjured wretch • incorigible ; a Schifmatick, 
and an ohflinate Heretick"] Yet is their Churches Succef- 
iion continued from this condemned Heretick, w ho ftaid 
in fpight of the Council that depofed him. 

But you'll fay, Though the Pope may fo erre, yet Ge- 
neral Councils cannot. A/ifiv. Thele very Councils 
that condemned him,are now rejected by you, as is Ephef. 
2. and many others : yea accufed as being mother 
Church $ faith the Learned Cardinal Cajetan in his Ora- 
tion at the Council at the Later ane [ub. Leon. 10. ( Bin. p. 
552.) [This Novelty of Pifa (Mark Councils are No- 
velists) fyrung up at Conftance, and vanished : At Bafil it 
fpyung up again, and is exploded. And if you he Men it 
will now alfo be reprejfed as it was under Eugen.4. f or 
it cometh not from Heaven, nor doth it embrace the Princi- 
pality of that One who is in the church-Triumphant , and 
preferveth the Church-Militant • and which the Synod of 
Pifa ought to embrace if it came from Heaven, and not as 
it doth to rely on the Government of a Multitude. The 
Church of the Pifans therefore doth far differ from this 
Church of Chrifi : For one is the Church of Believers y the 
other of Cavillers • One of the Houjho/d of God, the other 
of the Erroneous : One ofchrijlian-men, the other offuch 



as fear not to tear the Coat of Cbrifl 5 and divide the Aty- 
pical Members of chri\\ from bis Mvflical Body, 

See here to what Novelty and • Apoftacy, even to be 
another church: You think that General Councils have 
fallen, as thofe Councils lay the Pope hath done. O but 
thefe Men can corrupt nothing, becaufe the Martyrs 
Avould not have corrupted it ! And yet even good Mens 
pious credulity, believing ignorant Mens Dreams and 
Vifions ( fuch as Gregorics Dialogues and BeH.t ihewto 
any rational Man ) may do much to introduce Changes. 

But if Changes be lb impofiible,becau{e Fore-rathers 
were pious Men and of another mind, how come the 
Greek-Churches to be Apoftatized ib far to Mahometa- 
nifme ? and why do you accufe the Proteftants,or Greeks 
of changing, If it was impolTible ( for ten Families ) to 
do it? Sure then the jAbaffiHis^ Syrians, Armenians, 
Greeks y eye, have their old Faith itiil unchanged, if it be 
impofltble. Sure never fuch Viliany was charged on their 
Bilhops as on your Popes. If .they may change, notwith- 
standing their Fore-fathers Piety, why qot you ? 

In the laft place I ihould fpeak to your Teftimonics 
out of fome Ancients. But r. Why Ihould we put it to 
the tryal of Fathers^whcn you dare not ftand to it,but fly 
to the Authority and Judgment of your prefentChurch ; 
that is, your Pope. 2. Can any Fathers fpeak plainer 
than St. Paul himfelf doth, who caileth it Bread after 
Confecration thrice in the three next Verfes ? Or did 
the Fathers contradict him? If they delivered what they 
received, we fee what that was. Is oral Tradition con- 
trarv to the Scripture ? Is hot this a certain Argument? 
Pvd\n 1 Cor. 11. faith oft that it is Bread after Confe- 
cration ; t'^^that Speaker, or Writer is deceived, or a 

G Decei- 

C 4 8) 

Deceiver,\\ ho faith, that he or any other Apoftle deliver 
ed the contrary by word of Mouth. 

y. Doth this Difcourfer mean fincerly in talking of 
Tradition and the Fathers Testimonies, and yet never 
once attempt any anfwer to all thole Teftimonies to the 
contrary, out of their plain words, which our Writers 
have copioufly and often cited. How many, and many 
more, plain Teftimonies of the Fathers againftTranfub- 
ftantiation doth one Edmundus Albert in m give you ? to 
whichinltead of anfwers^a few meer words,or cavils are 
returned : But all thele are overlooked by this Difcourfer. 

But come, let us briefly try all his great proof of the 
Tradition of the Fathers. 

I. He begins with excellent Augufline ( who in a Car- 
thage Council did help to quell the Pope's Ufurpation ) 
And out of many great Volumns he hath found, i. That 
AtiXiin faid, that £ now it is no longer called Bread, . but the 
Body of chrifl : ] The fame will the Presbyterians fay : 
Do they not in their Directory fay, [ Take, eat, this is 
the Body of chrift ] when they deliver the Sacrament f 
Are they therefore for Tranlubftantiation ? Is it all one to 
fay, [_It is not called Bread, and, It is not Bread?. J if the 
Kings Statue be made in Marble or Brafs, you may well 
fay. This is not now to be called Marble and Brajs, but 
the King. 

2, That Atflin faid [that Chrift gave us his very Flefl) 
to be eaten to our Salvation 5 but no body eateth that Flejh^ 
unlefs he have firfl adored it.'] Anfvv. Any Proteftant will 
fay the fame. For Chrift himielf hath faid, Except ye 
eat the Flefi of the Son of Man, and drink his Blood, ye 
have no life in you. Do not your own facrilegious Popes 
and Clergy expound this of fomething elfe than the 
Eucharift ? when they deny the Cup to the People ? If it 


be that wine Confecrated that is here meant, what 
bloody wretches are you to damn all your Peoples Souls, 
by denying them all that Blood of Chrift, without drink- 
ing which they have no life ? But it's certain by i Cor.i 5. 
that Chrift hath not Fleih and Blood in Heaven, and 
therefore it is not the Heavenly Body, that,as iuch,is here 
meant •, but the true fenfe of Chrift and Aufm is, that 
as the Sacrifices are eaten by fuch, by, and for whom they 
are offered •, fo his Fleih and Blood offered on the Crols 
is the true Sacrifice for Sin, which mull be eaten in its 
Commemorative Reprefentation orally in the Sacrament., 
and really in it felf by Faith, that the benciiirs of that Sa- 
crifice may be ours. And who doth not adore that Chrift 
\\ horn w e thus eat and live upon ? This is the fum of 
all that the Fathers fay. 

But let the Reader judge of Aujlins mind by plainer 
Words, De Doclr. Chrijl. cap. 7. £ Le t no Man look to 
what they arc ( mentioning the Bread and wine ) but to 
r$hat they fignifc : For our Lord w.ts p 'leafed to fay, This is 
my Body when he gave the fign of his Body.~] 

And Cont. Max. I. 3 . cap. 22. £ we note in the Sacra- 
ments, not whit they are, but what they jhevp ; For they are 
ft?ns, which are one things and'fignific anotl er7\ 

And Epi/l. 23. ad Btnif. [if Sacraments had not frn.c 
likenefs (or relemblance) to thofe things whereof they 
arc Sacraments, they could not be Sacraments at all. From 
this likenefs ( or relemblance ) they often take the names 
of what they represent: Therefore as the Sacrament of 
Chr:(l*s Bfldy is in fomc fort his Body, fo the Sacrawcnt of 
Faith is Faith alfo.~] 

You need no more than this of Auflin to Interpret other 
Fathers, that call the Sacrament chnffs Body. 

II. His next is Ambroje 7 \\ho faith thut^That when Con- 

G z (ecrztion 

fetration hath been made </' Bread, it is made the Flefh of 
chrift~\ and [Chrift mJkffi 'this Sacra?vent~] and [the 
Body of Chrift w.zs not bejore Confccration, but after, &c.] 
Anfw. i. All thi^ the Presbyterians fay. Even as we lay, 
It is not a Law till the King give the /U% or it is not his 
Coin till his Authority and Stamp fo make it $ And are 
they therefore of your mind? 2. Ambrose exprefly ex- 
pounds his negation of ordinary Bread h no doubt it is not 
ordinary Bread. 3. You would deceive the Reader by 
hiding Ambrofe , who faith there, de Sacram, I. 4. c. 4. 
[ This we afjerty how that which is Bread ( mark that ) 
can yet be the Body of chrift ] — [_ And if chrift 3 s Speech 
hadfo much that it made that to begin to be which was not • 
how much more is it operative that the things that were, both 
Be-y and be changed into Something clfc -- ] And [As thou 
hafi drunk the jlmilitude of Death, fo thou drinkeji the ft- 
mtlitude of precious Bloody So Ambrofe, and fo the Pro- 

III. His next is Hierome » out of many Volumns he. 
hath gathered thus much, that Priefts \_make the Body of 
cWift with their jacred Mouth and Prayers.'} Anfw, 
And any Proteflant will fay the like : He that faith [This 
is the Bodj of cbrif] that' is, Sacramentally, will fay 
that, under Chrift, his Minifter maketh it fuch. And is 
this the Tradition ? 

2. Let Hierome fpeak for himfelf, Contr. Jovin.i. 2. 
[The Lord as a Type {or Figure ) of his Blood, offered not 
water, but wine.~] Are not thefe words plain, till' the 
Pope expound them? 

IV. His next is Cyprian, de Coena Vom. And, 1 . Let the 
Reader note, that even Belh.ywine de fcript. Eccl. in Cy- 
prian faith, that the Book which this Man citeth as St. 
Cyprians, [ was neither Cyprians, nor any Learned Mans ~ 

* and 


and had neither words nor sentences worthy a framed 
7Aan, Out fo$Ujh and ricvcu o tk Narations, and. Fables."} 

2. The words cited out of it are [ Pant's ijkt quem P<>- 
minus di[ci\uhs forrigebat, non efpue fed nat/^a mutatus^ 
omnipotent™ verb i \fA:vm eft Car J] But by \_Natura~} the 
Author plainly meaneth \jhc Relative Nature'} and not 
the Subfance. And it was not for nothing that Bellar- 
tniae contcmneth him, who ever he was 5 for he is down- 
right againft Tranliib/tantiation. Cap 2. He maketh the 
difference between this and common Meat to be, that, 
Corpora! is [mi c ret mens (pecie?n, fed zr-- tut is divinx 

tnvifibili cfficientia probans ad efje pr.efentiam : It is but 
the pretence of Divide virtue that he affirms to be with 
the Speeds of corporeal [ttbjlmce. And plainer, cap, 3. 
\_ when the Lord had [aid, Do this in my remembrance, 
This is my Bod), and this my Blood~] as oft as by thef'e words 
and this faith it is done , that fuperfnbjlantial Bread and 
Cup, by \olemn bleffing hallowed^ profiteth to the life and 
health of the whole Man 5 being both a Medicine and a Sa- 
crifice, to heal our infirmities and purge our iniquities. 
And lhewing the difference between the Common part 
of Chrift's laft Supper, and this Spiritual Food, he addeth, 
that, [_whcn the ferfideou-s mind of Judas touched this holy 
Meaty and the fanflified Bread entred his wicked Mouthy 
&c7S So that he calleth it fanclifed Bread after the Con- 

And Cap. — telling why Chrift calleth the fame both 
Bread,B ! ood,Flejh, and his Body, he imh,[_Panis eft cfca,8cc. 
Bread is Meat, Blood is Life, Flefh is Substance, his Body 
the Church. And cap. 4. This Sacrament Chrifi calleth 
fometime" his Body, fometime Flejb and Wood, fometime 
Bread • a Portion of Life eternally, which he Communi- 
cate th according t« thefe vtfthle thinfs Jo corporal Nature, 



That common Bread being turned into Fief) and Blood, pro* 
cureth Life and increase to bodies ( that is, our common 
Conco&ion turneth common Bread into our Flcfh arid 
"Blood • ) Therefore the Infirmity of our Faith being helped 
by the ufual efjecl of things^ iy a [enable Argument is 
tanohty that the effed of Life eternal is in Vifible Sacra- 
ments • and thtit we are united to chrif, non tarn Corpora- 
liquam fpirituali tranfitione,notJo much by a Corporal as by 
a spiritual Tranftion, And cap. 6. His CoxjuneJion and 
curs neither mingle th Person ^ nor unite th Subflances ; but 
Confociateth Affettions^ and Confederateth Wills, 

And the fame Author, or another,' in Cyprian's Works, 
de Unci tone chryfm. cap, 7. Saith Q Our Lord at the Table 
where he lajl feafled with his Dijciples, gave them with bis 
own hands, Bread and ivine • but on the Crojs he gave his 
Body to be wounded by the hands of Soulaiers, that the fin- 
cere truth, and true fincerity, fecretly imprinted in the 
Apoflles^ might expound to the Nations how the wine and 
Bread w&s Flefl) and Blood • and by what Reasons the C li- 
fe s agreed to the Ejects, and divers Names and Species 
were reduced to one Efjence . and the Things figmfying, 
and the things figni fed were called by the fame Names, (or 
known by the fame Words ) By thefe p r iv Hedges of fu- 
pernatural Grace, by the eating ef fanc~lificdBread,Leing 
refrefhed, wafted, and anointed, &c,~\ Reader, here you 
fee what Tradition faith. 

Next out of 'Cyprian de Lap (is, he citeth words againft 
them, that \_wilh defied hands and mouths receive the 
Body, and drink the Blood of the Lord.~] Words which 
Proteftants have more frequently than Cyprian ., and are 
they on your fide too ? 

Butj fhall Cyprian have leave to fpeak indeed ?• Epifl, 
adMagn, cap, 4, \_wben our Lord catleth bis Body Bread, 



we (ted by the adunation of man) Grains, he fleweth the 
Union of the People whom he bare : and when he called his 
blood wine, exprefjed tut of man) bunches of Grapes and 
Kernels, and made up into one, he fgnifed one Flock unt- 

ted,8ccr\ ' 

And Etijl. 63 M C Milium de sacram. Proving that the 
Sacrament fhould not have iviter alone without Wine, he 
faiths 2. [_That the Cup which is offered in commcmo- 
ration of him le o']ered mist with Wine, For when 
Chrift (aith, I am the true Vine, his blood is not water, but^ 
wine. Nor c m his blood, by which we are redeemed ana 
Unci) fed, be feen to be in the cup, if wine be not in the 
cup, by which Chnfrs blood is ftewed, &c. 

And c. 6. we find the cup mist which Chrift offered, and 
that it was wine which he called his blood, whence it is 
apparent that the blood of Chrift is not offered, if wine be 
wanting to the cup 3 nor is the Lords Sacrifice celebrated 
faduefanclification, unlefs our Oblation and Sacrifice an* 


And cap 9. In the wine is (hewed the blood of Chrijr, 
as in the water is underflood the People. (Is the water turn- 
ed into the People?) 

And cap. 10, So the cup of the Lord is not water alone, 
nor wine alone, but mu(l both be mixed - even as the bod) 
of the L»rd cannot be meal {or flower ) alone, or water 
alone, but both muft be united, conjoined, and be bread by 
compofition folidated. 

And cap. 12. C As oft as we offer the cup in commemora- 
tion of the Lord and his Paffion, let us do that which is 
m wife (I the Lord did.~] So much of Cyprian. ; 

V. The next cited by him is Tertullian, faying, L™' 
fejh is fed with the body and blood of Chril}, that the Soul • 
'may be made fat with Godr\ 

C 54 > 

Anf». i . The fame we all lay, even when we Admi- 
nister the Sacrament : See the like in the English Litur- 
gy, and the Directory : Are we therefore for Traniub- 
itantiation? 2. Jtisthe Reprefentathe body of chrifi, and 
not real flefh and blood: For he faith, that he t hat cat- 
cth fat fie Jh^ and dnnketh his bloody hath eternal life • and 
dwelleth >n Chrifl and Chrifl in him^ John 6. 54, 56* But 
the wicked ,that eat the body of Chriit Representative, 
have not eternal life, nor dwell in Chriit. 

Another citation {tomTertu'l/an is lib.de idololat. [To 
touch the bod) of our Lord with thofe hands which give bo- 
dies ts Devils -> &c] 

An[rv. Here is no more than we commonly fay: This 
Man fure would prove that the Liturgy and Directory 
are both for his opinion. Is this the Proof of Univerfal 
Tradition ? 

Reader, Tertufiian calls it The body of chrifl, and fo 
do we. Will you hear him fpeaking his own Senfe, 
which this Man concealeth ? 

Cont. Marriott) I. 3. c. 19. [ Sic enim Bens in Evange/io 
quoq^ veftro revelavit, panem corpus fuum appellans, ut ejr 
nine jam earn intelligas corporis fm fgurr.m pani dedtfjcj 
c/ijvs retro corpus in panem Prophet es figuravit, ipfo Domino 
hie fixer amentum poflea interpret aturo.~] That is £ For fo 
God even in your Go/pel revealed, calling bread his body^ 
that jo hence yon may under fil and, that he gave to bread the 
figure of his body • whofe body the Prophet formerly figured 
into breads the Lord himfef being afterward to interpret 
this Sacrament. 2 Here it is oft called bread, and this bread 
is called Chrift's body, and the figure of the Body given 
to bread it felf, as was prefigured by the Prophets before 
Chrifl: had a body. 

And Cont, Marc, l % 1,14. [Net panem (reprobavit) 



qu» ipfum corpus [uum reprefentatf] [ He reprobated net 
bread, by which he represented bis oven very body.'] Pame- 
lius hath no fhift, but to iay, that by repref ntmg he mean- 
eth making prefent, iuch deceit will feem to prove to 
them Univerfal Tradition : And he citeth many other 
places, as for him, out otTertullian, which have no more 
but his naming the Sacrament Chriji's lody and blood jus we 
all do. 

Co fit. Marc. 1. 4. c. 40. He is yet plainer, faying Q The 
bread which be took and cliff ribnted to bis Difciples, that be 
made his body, faying, This is my body • that is, the F \ GUR.g 
of my body : But it had not been tbe Figure of it, if he had 
not had a true Bods. For an empty thing which is a pban- 
tafm, can ha+c no Figure • or if -he therefore feigned (or 
made) bresd to be his body, becaufe he wanted (crhad 
not ) a true body, then it was bread that ke mu(l deliver 
up for us: It made for Marciorw Vanity that bread jhoiild he 
Crucified. (All this is to prove againit Alarcion that 
Chrift had a true body.) But why doth he call bread bis 
body, and not a Pumpion, which Marcion hath inffeadof a 
heart , not under flanding that this was the old figure of 
Chritfs lody, (N.B. had Chrift fkfh then ? ) who [aid by 
Jeremy X They have devifed a Device againfl me, f tying, 
Come , let us caft wood upon his bread- that is, tbe Crofs 
upon his body fo aljo making bis Te (lament in the men- 
tion of the Cupy &c. And th.it you may know the old figure 
of his blood in wine, Elaias faith, 6cc. fo now be confecra- 
ted his blood in wine , who then figured wine in blood."] 
Let any thing but ignorance and impudence judge, 
whether here be not over and over, bread and wine r iter 
Confederation, being the reprefentative and figurative b* 
dy and blood of Chrift, or reprefenting and figuring them 
fullier, as the Prophets had partly, or darkly done before. 

H But 

Hut notliing will convince fome that rage, and art 

I repeat Tertu'uians reproof of" the denyers of the 
certainty ofSenfe,Z,/'£ de Annim. c,iy. [The; (fere if Cau- 
ses are freed from the infamy ( of fallacy ) how much more 
Scxfe, which Caufes freely go lefore, &c. what doft thou 
procacious Accademick ? T/jo/t overturneH the whole St Ate 
of Life . thou trouble jl the whole Order of Nature • thou 
blindeft the Providence of God him[elf, as if he had made 
deceitful and lying Senjes the Ijords of all h s works, as 
they are to be known, inhabited) difperfed, and enjoyed.-— 
Jt is not lawful for us to call thofe fenfes into dou t, left in 
ChriH we deliberate of the belief of them • Left perhaps 
it be faid that he falfly (aw Satan cajl down from Heaven, 
or falfly heard his Fathers Voice teflifying of him ; or w.s; de- 
ceived when he touched Peter'/ Mother-in-Lawyr after felt 
fome other Spirit of the Ointment, which he received as to 
his Burial • and fome other relilh of the wine which he 
Consecrated for the Memorial (or to be the Me- 
morial ) of his bloody So much for Tertullian. 

VI. He next citeth cbryfoflorne, faying that Chrift 
[ makes us his Body, not only in belief, lut in very deed • 
and that we eat and touch his Body.'] Anfw. And doth 
he not fee how in citing thefe, he confutcth himfelf. 
i . Chrift doth really make Us his Body ; that is, his Po- 
litical and Miftical Body: But is it we that this Man 
wcukl prove Tranfubftantiate into Chrift's Body? I 
thought it had been the Bread, and not Us. 

2. If we touch chrift 9 s Bod) it muft be his Reprefenta- 
tive Body • for the Papifts hold that we touch not the real 
Flefh'and Blood of chrif, but only certain Accidents, which 
now are nottrje Accidents of Chrift s Body, nor of any 
other Subftmce. 



It would be tedious to cite out of Chryfoflome all that, 
makes againft them. Let thefe plain words lerve to 
notifie his mind [ Eptft. ad Cefar. The Bread is made wor- 
thy to be honoured with the Name of the Flejh of Chriflfa 
the Priejl's Consecration • yet the Plefo retains the proper- 
ties of its incorruptible Nature-, as the Bread doth its Na- 
tural Subflance, Before the Bread is fxuCllfied we call it 
Bread • hut when it is Consecrated by the Divine Grace, it 
deferveth to be called the Lords Body, thou h the Sub fiance 
' of the Bread ft ill rcmaineth^] 

Reader, This is the Tradition of the Church. 

As to fome Mens Cavil, that this E iftle is Spurious, 
it is fully confuted by Learned Men from fuflicient 

VII. The next cited is a word that feemeth, in found, 
to be for them, in Cyril ( or lbmc think John ) of Jeru- 
fale'ms Catechiime. Read the words Tranflated by him- 
felfj It is that Sentence which above all in the Ancients 
they mod boalt of, [yiz>. Do not look on it as b.ve bre.:d,and 
bare wine 5 for it is the body and blood of Chrift : — For 
though thy Senje fuggefl this to thee, yet let Faith confirm 
thee : Do not judge of the thing by the tafie, but rather 
from Faith hold for certain, fo that thou haf no doubt that 
the b$dy and blood are given thee • knowing -and accounting 
for certain y that this bread which is feen by us, is not bread, 
though our tafte judge it to be bread • but that it is the body 
of Chrif : And the wine which is feen by us is not wine, 
hut the blood of ChrrlK'] 

Anfw. Here Idefire the Reader to note, i. That this 
one Sentence is all that hath any words that found likehls 
Sentence (that there is no true bread and wine) of all that 
he bringeth to prove Univerfal Tradition* 2. That this 
Book called Cyril's Cat, Myfiagog. is queftioned. 3 . That 

H 2 the 


the Auther plainly declarcth himfelf againft Tranfub- 

Which I prove, i. The Aflfertion which he ftateth i% 
that the bread and urine ( for fo he calleth them ) are not 
[bare, or meer bread and w/»*]_but Chrift's body and 
blooA ; which we all aflert •: As the King's Statue in Brafs 
is not bare Brafs. 2. He next bids us not judge by our 
tafle, that it is bare bread. And after when he faith it is 
not bread and vpine,. and appealeth to Faith from Senfe, 
it is but his repeating cf what he before aflerted • mean- 
ing that though Senfe perceives nothing but bare bread 
and wine,- yet Faith perceiveth Chrift's body and bloody 
and io it is not to be called bread and wine, for all proper 
denomination, is from the Form 5 and the Form of a Sa- 
crament is Relative, (as of a Statue, Image, symbol, 
Sign, &c.) and it is Relatively Chrift's body and blood, 
So that it is but, that it's bare bread, that he denyeth •, as 
we do. 

3, Moft fully, he tells us his mind. Cat. 3. p. 235. 
[For as the bread of the Eueharift after the Invocation of 
the Holy Ghoft, is no more Common bread, but is the 
body of Chrifl -, jo alfo this holy Oyntmsnt is no more meer 
Ointment, nor ( if any one had rather fo [peak ) Common, 
novo it is Confecratedr, but it is a Grace {or Gift ) which 
caufeth the pre fence of Chriji^ and the Holy Ghofi ; that is 9 
of his Divinity:'] So that if you take him to aflert the 
Tran fubftantiation of bread^ you muft fay that he takes 
Ojl alfo to be Tranfitbfantiate into Grace, or the Holy 
Ghoft. For he faith, that one is fo as the other is changed. 
That is, they are no more meer or common bread, or 

VIII. His laft is out of Juftin Martyr y who faith 
[_ We do not tafo thefe things as . Common md ordinary 
bread, &c. An[ve> 


An\w. i. There is not one word in J 'uft in Martyr 
here that we do not own, and fay ; ( nor do we defire to 
worlhip God by any other Liturgy, or Order of Worfliip, 
than that which he defcribeth as then the Practice 
of the Chriftian Church. O that we might all unite in 
that defcribed Order ! 

2. And if any may be yet unsatisfied what Tradition 
faith, hear J uft in farther, A.oi, 2. (Truly the (veil) 
[ivhen the Pre fide nt hath given thanks y and all the people 
acclaimed, theje that with us are called Deacons, dijlri)ute 
to every one present Bread and Wine and water, 
and bring them to thofe that are abfentf] It is bread and 
wine whendiftributcd. 

And Dial. Cum Tnph. [ The Offering of Flower deli- 
vered to be offered for them that were cleanfed of the Le- 
profe, was a Type of the Bread of the Eucbarift, which 
our Lord Jefus Chri[\ commanded us to make in re mem* 
b ranee of his Paffionf\ 

Thus you fee to what his boaft of Univerfal Tradition 
is come. 

Read but Da/Uus de Cult it Latinorum, and you will 
fee that there Universal Tradition was againft them. 

The forefaid Author of the Dialogue, called, [Full and 
eafie fatisfaclion which is the true Religion,'] to thefe fore- 
mentioned addeth more, which you may rcid,pag. 140, 
&c, viz. Iren.tii-s laying, [For .ts the bread which is of 
the Earthy receiving the Divine Invocation, is not now 
common bread, but the Eucharifl, con fifing of two things, 
the Terrene and the Coelejlial, &c. Lib, 4. ^.34. 

Origin in Mat. 25. calling it [Bread, and a typical and 
fymbolical body y which profteth none but the worthy Recei- 
vers, and that according to the proportion of their .Faith ; 
which no wicked man eateth, &c t 



Eufeb.Gefar. Demonftr. Evang. I; i.e. 10. [Celebra- 
ting duly the Memorial, of the body and blood of cbnjl — 
Seeing we receive the Memorial of this sacrifice, to be per- 
fected on the Table i by the Symbols of his bodi and moft pre. 
thus blood—UbS. He delivered us to ufe bread as the Sym- 
bol of his own body, 

Ephr. (in Bibiioth Photii, p. 4 1 *- Ed.Auguih) The 
body of Chrift which Believers receive, lofeth not his fenji- 
ble fubftance, and is not feparated from the intelligible 



And ad eos qui filii Dei, &c [ Take notice diligently, 
how takin* bread in his hands he blefledit, and brake it, 
/.^Figure of his immolate Body . and he Ue[\ed 
the Cup, and gave it to his Difcifles, as a Figure of his 

fretious blood. 

Theodoret in Dialog, de Immutab. againft an Eutycbian, 
who pleaded, that Bread in the Euchanft was turned in- 
to Chrifts Body, faith, [The Lord who called that meat 
and bread, which naturally was his body, and who again 
called himfelf a Vine, did honour the Viftble Signs with 
the Names of his Body and Blood \ not having changed their 
Nature, but added Grace to Nature,'] Can any Proteftant 
fpeak plainer than this ? . 

And Dial. i. [The Divine Myftenes are Signs of the 

true Body. . . . 

And further, anfwering the Eutychian, he iaith, [By the 
Net which thou m made art thou, taken : For even after 
the Cmfccration tie myflical Sig^s change not their -Na- 
ture, for they remain in all their fir'ji SUBS TA Nl t, 
Figure, 4nd Form, andarevifible, and to be handle* M 
before?, This is not plain enough for aPapift. 

Nor Gelafim cont. Neflor.& Butuh. [Verily the Sacra- 
ment of the body and blood of Chrift which we take ts a 
, J J Divine 


Divine things for wh^cb and by which we are made parta- 
kers of the Divine Nature ; and. yet it ceafeth not to be 
the SUBSTANCE ^NATURE ofbreadand 
wine : And certainly the Image and fmitit tide of the Body 
and Blood of chrifl are celebrated, in the action of the My- 
pries.*] O dark layings ! 

£ Cyr:l,A'ex. in /< ?*$• c > 14- U^'c' 11 ^ t0 Hi W^*W& 
Vijci'jfes jragr,;j/,ti of tread, JayiHgjTakc, cai y this is 
my body.] 

Facundus is there cited as from Molinxus (!.o. c. 5.*. 
404. though I have not the Author) laying \_ire c.U! 
that the body and blood of Chrij}, which is the Sacrament of 
his body in the Consecrated bread and cup. Not that the 
bread is prop'rly his body, and the cup his blood, but because 
they contain the My fiery of his body and blood.'] 

To thefe I might add plain Teltimonies out of moll of 
the Ancients, who write on this fubjed: Such, e.g. as 
thefe words of Gregor. Nyjjen Or at. de B apt if. As the Al- 
tar natura r ,y is but common Stone, but being consecrated be* 
cometh a holy Table, an unfpotted Altar ; fo the bread of the 
En chart ft is At fir ft ordinary, but being myjlerioujly facrificed > 
it is, and is called, The body of Chrifl : , and is effectual 
to great things : And as the Trie ft who was yeflerday 
a Lay-wan, by the blcffing of Ordination is made a Teacher 
'*f Godlinefs, *nd a Steward of the Myflcries, and though 
not changed in b:dy or jhape, yet is changed and made better 
as to his foul, by an invifible power and grace . fo alfo by 
the fame consequence water, being nothing but Water of it 
felf y yet bleH by the heavenly grace, reneweth man by 
working in him the fpiritual regeneration. 

Is Stone in the Altar, or the Priefl ordained, or miter 
in Baptifm tranfubftantiated ? 

If Charles the Grcar was a Hereticfc, the Pope is great- 


ly beholden to a Heretick. In his Epift. to Alcunius he 
faith, [Chrifi at his Suffer did break the Bread to his Difi 
rifles, and likemfe gave them the Cup, in Figure of his 
body and blood • and [o left to us this great Sacrament for 
cuf benefit!] This was his Tradition. 

Amalarius Praef. de Offic. Ecclef. [/ am [wayed in all 
that I write by the judgment of holy men and godly Fa- 
thers ; yet what I judge my [elf I [peak : Tho[e things 
which are done in the celebration of Divine Service^ are 
done in the Sacrament of the Paffion of our Lord, .ts he 
him[eif commanded. Therefore the Priest offering the bread 
with the wine and water in the Sacrament, doth it in the 
fie ad of chrifi 5 and the bread and wine and water in the 
Sacrament represent the fiefi and blood of Chrijh For Sa- 
craments are [omewhat to rejemble tho[e things whereof 
they are Sacraments. Therefore let the Priefl be like to 
Chrifi, as the bread and liquors are like the body and blood 

if Chrifi. ~] 

[The Sacrament of the body of chrifi is in[ome manner 
the body of Chrifi : For Sacraments Would not be Scra- 
ments, if in [ome things they had not the likenefs of that 
whereof they are Sacraments. Now by reafon of this mu- 
tual likene[s, they are often called by that which they repre- 
fin\ — ■ Sacraments have the virtue to I ring us to tbofe 
things, of which they are Sacraments!] 

Walafridus Strabo de reb. Eccl.cap. 16., faith, [Chrifi 
gave to his Di[cipies the Sacrament of his body and blcod in 
the [ubfiance of bread and wine 7] 

Bernard an. 1120. Serm.de Pur ific. Alar, faith, [The 
Boc'y of Chrifi in the Sacrament is the food of the Soul, not 
of the Belly . therefore we eat him not corporally^ but in 
the manner that chrifi is meat, in that (ame manner we 
under fi and that he is eaten. And Serm. de S* Martin. 



The fame F/eJl) is given us to this day, but Spiritual I) 
not Corporally^} 

To conclude, If the words This is my Body are to be 
taken literally, then fo are the reft • [ This Cup is the 
New Te[iamcnt in my Blood.J And then the Cup is 
Tranfubftantiated into the New Teftament. 

And he that at once doth believe that Chrift hath a. 
Glorified Spiritual Body , that Fleih and Blood doth not 
enter into the Kingdom of Heaven , that the Bread and 
Wine ceafeto be Bread andwine^ and are turned fubftan- 
tially into the very Flejb and Blood of Chrift , and yet that 
the Pope and his Clergy are not Enemies of Chrift and 
Souls, who deny this Blood to the People, and give them 
but a half Chrift and a half Sacrifice, when he is praifed 
by all Saints for warning them from their fins in his Blood -, 
this Man and his Leaders ieem to be Educated in fuch an 
Academy, as F eft us thought Paul had been, and to be 
made by Satan the Stumbling-block of the unbelieving 
World, to perfwade them to laugh at Chriftianity as we 
do at the Fopperies of Mahomet\ Alcoran •, and to make 
all the Nations of Heathens and Infidels believe that they 
cannot be Chriftians, unlefs they will be mad and fenfe- 
lefs too : While Senfes, Reafon, Scripture, the Hiftory 
of the Church, and Writings of the Ancients,the Traditi- 
on and Judgement of the far greateft part of the Church, 
together with Charity, Humanity, and Peace, are all 
denyed in obedience to one Man y that, becaufc one Prince 
and his Clergy made him the firft Biihop in hisEmpire and 
Councils, feigneth hi mfelf to be the Univerfal Monarch 
of the World •, and undertaketh an Apoftlefbip and Go- 
vernment at the Antipodes ( when his zealoufeft Bimops 
formerly fome of them thought there was no fuch place -, ) 
and obligeth himfelf to the care of Souls farther than 

I Drake 


Drake and Candijh Sailed , even in abundance of un- 
known Lands 5 and fas his Agents oonfelfed to the Ah af- 
fixes ) where his Miflioners have no accels. 

The ium of all the Hiftory of this Matter is, The Fa- 
thers culled it as we do, fometime Chrift's Body, and 
fometime ^he Figure, or reprefentation of his Body, and 
often Bread : And from the Name, in the dark Age, the 
Thing grew controvated, and France was the chief Seat 
of the Contention: Bellarmine himfelffaith,that an. 820. 
[PafchafiusRatbertus,^ Abbot ^ was the firfi Man that fe- 
rioujly and copiottjh Wrote of the truth of the Body and Blood 
of the Lord in the Euch riji againft, Bertram^ who he 
thinks was one of the firlt that Wrote againft it. Bell, de 
fcript. Eccl.Johan.Parifienfis and the Sorbonifts concluded 
that neither Opinion was de fide : But the Pope chanced 
to be on the other* and the Council of Trent hath now 
made it de fide. Qu. Whether the Sorbonifts knew not 
that Tradition which Parents teach their Children ? nor 
any of thofe that were againft Ratbertus ? 

But the Difcourfer pretendeth in the end to Anfwer 
Objections : But he rirft made them himfelf fo thin, that 
he might not defpair of faying fomething, which a Man 
deep in his Cups, or one that is little ufed to the Exercife 
of his Brain, might poffibly. take for a Rational Anfwer. 
But if the Reader be a Man that will be at fo much pains 
to efcape delufion, as to Head over the Arguments 
againft Tranfubftantiation in the forementioned (little) 
Book of R, B. and then try whether he can here find 
them Anfwered 5 I may conjecture that he will not boaft 
©f the Difcourfer's performances. 

He begins the Objection with a [ why doth not this 
marvelom change appear to our Senfes, as well as other 
mrvthfts mrh : as the wtter turned into Wine, &c] 



Iconfefs it is ftrmgc F-'e/b and Blood, that no fenfe can 
perceive : But affiritual Body may be out of the percepti- 
on of our Senfe. But did not the Difcourfer know, that 
it is another kind of Objection that we make ? Not {yvhy 
doth not God fhe.v m t e Miracle to our Senfe? ] but {whe- 
ther God deceive all our- Senfes and Intellect which there 
perce;ve Bread avd wine , -when there is none ? 1 It is not, 
whether Senfe perte foe Ckrifl ? but, [n'Av/7- seafeper^ 
ceive Bread and mni ? ] It is not, whether Senfe tk> pri~ 
lativfy nrtperceiv ; but, whether it here Ptfit fatly trre % 
and the firft intellective perception of the fenfate Object, 
be an Errour ? 

But under the Coats of this firft part, he brings in a 
little of the true Objection at laft, [ i; // wc>dd f.^ow, that 
" we mght call in quejiion the whole Myjlery of Cbriftia- 
" nity, &c7\ 

His Aniwer to all is, By & liftimRia* of Miracles ; 
feme are to convince Unbelievers • fomt to ?aniii$c and 
fave Believers : And thefe are not to he the oljecl of our 
Senfes. He inftanceth in Baptism, if winch ^ as an outward 
and viCiole Si<?n* is wrought an invifi'le Grace in the Soul 
of the baptized • though view the Chid as much as you 
will, you can by none of your Senfes perceive any mutation 

Anfw. As your Tranfubjlantiation feemeth devifed to 
make Infidels, io doth your Doctrine of £aptj(w ieem 
made to make AnabaptiJIs. Is it by a Miracle that Bap- 
tifm givctli Grace to the Adult, or not ? If not, will not 
Men rather turn Anabaptifts, than believe that Infants 
can have no Grace by Baptifm, but by Miracle $ when 
that Sacrament was inftituted to give Grace to the Adult 
without a Miracle , and Scripture mentioneth no fuch 
difference of the Effects ? But if it be by Miracle to the 

I 2 Adult, 


Adult, is it not alfo by Miracle, that Men receive Grace 
by Reading, Preaching, or other means ? You'll never 
prove one a Miracle, and not the other. And before we 
come to the Difpute between the Jefuites and fome Fry- 
ars, the Armimans againft fome Caivini[ts^ whether all 
Grace wfu\ed be a Miracle, we mud beftow more time 
to agree of the definition of a Miracle, than is congru- 
ous to our prefent bufinefs. Overdoing is undoing : 
They that will make Men believe, that all Grace and 
Chriftianity is a Miracle, I doubt, do but drive men from 
the belief of all. 

But this Difcourfer tells us, that you fee no change on 
a Child. Anfw. And is all a Miracle that is unieen ? Is 
God a Miracle ? Are Angels and all Spirits Miracles ? Is 
the Soul of a Man, or of a Beaft, or the Life of a Plant a 
Miracle^becaufe unfeen? Then all Grace however wrought 
is a Miracle ♦, yea, and every thought of a mans heart 
both good and evil. 

Is all a Miracle that is done by God alone, without fe- 
cond Caufes ? Then his moving the firft created Motor 
were a Miracle. And yet who can fay, that no fecond 
Caufe is uled in the conveyance of Grace ? 

But if you could prove that Word and Sacraments 
work Grace by miracle, you would make us lefs wonder 
that it is no more common : And here the Prieft cannot 
do this Miracle when he will, for it muft be on a difpoled 
Subject : But your Priefts can make Bread to be no Bread, 
by miracle, when they will. But S. Paid faith, Are all 
works of miracles'? But how much greater Miracles your 
Priefts are feigned to work, than the raifing of Lazarus 9 
or any fuch like 5 and how your feigned Miracles are 
confufed, is fhewed fully by the forefaid Author. 

But the Qjieftioa, whether the Sacrament work by. 



miracle, is one • and that, whether it be it felfa miracle, is 
another. Gods workings are fecret to us,as the wind whole 
courfe we cannot defcribe^^.j.But is theSacrament it felf 
a Miracle ? The Word is not lb : Baptifm is not fo : You 
feign not your Confirmation to be lb : (though Cyril a- 
forefaid make the change of the Bread and of the Oyl to 
be alike.) And is only this one Ordinance a Miracle ? 

But if it were, what's that to the pofitive deception -of 
all ourSenfes ? 

He tells us of the Hypoftatical Union, anlwered be- 
fore: What Senfes are deceived by that? Doth Senfe 
judge that Chrift was not God ? Or that there is no Tri- 
nity ? Or that a Virgin may not conceive ? Not at all : 
Senfe neither tells us that it is fo, or that it is not. There- 
fore to tell us of things hidden from Senfe,. is impertinent. 
All the fpiritual and nobleft parts of N iture are out of the 
reach of our bodily Senfes : But Senfe is our only firft 
perceiver of all its own proper Objects, and the Intellects 
firit perception of them, is only as they are fenfate. 

But the only pertinent Anfwer given, is, \jve may al- 
way truH our Senses about their oven Objects, and in due 
eircumjlances, and when tve haze not pofttive grounds to 
think, either God Almighty by himfelf, or by an Angel \ or 
permijfn'ely by a Devil, represents things otherrvife than 
they are7\ 

Anfrv. When things are represented otherrvife than they 
*/*<?, it is either in other Jenjib/e qualities than they havc y 
or elfe fomething elfe is under thofe qualities, than what 
thev naturally fignifie •, or elfe it is by altering the Senfe, 
Organ, or Medium. The firft is a meer contradiction : 
To male an Object, to be what it rv.ts not, is ufual ; but to 
make it at the fime inftant to he what it is not, is a con- 
tradiction. Therefore by representing you cannot ratio- 


nally mean this •, c. g. To rcprefent a rough thing as 
imooth, a little thing as great, a white thing as black, 
by real alterations or thole qualities making them to 
be fo. 

But to make them feem fo, when really they are not 
fo > muft be by the failing of the Medium, Organ, Scnfe, 
phantafie, or Intellect, 

i. And for the Medium, no doubt but God can fo al- 
ter it eafily, as to deceive all mens Senfes : And in our 
prefent cafe, where all the five Senfes of all the found 
men in the World, that try, are pretended to be deceiv- 
ed, God is able to do it, by altering the Medium of eve- 
ry Senfe that hath a Medium : (For whether tacius have 
Any diftinct from the Organ is undetermined.) 

2. And the fame is to be laid of the Organ^ Sexfe, 
Phantafie, and Intellect : Quoad potent/am, no doubt but 
that God that can annihilate them can deprave them w hen 
he pleafe, and make a man fenfelefs, deceived, doting, 
melancholy, or mad •, either privatively, by withholding 
his neceffary natural aids 5 or poftivelj, by overcoming 

But the Queftion is not, Whether God can do tiiis per 
potenti m ; but, Whether he will do it, or can will to d* 
it in fuch cafe as ours, in confidence with his Governing 
wifdom and Goodness, and that Truth and Con/lancj which 
he manifelteth in the Government of the World. That 
he may and doth penally make men fenfelefs, mad, and 
dead, we doubt not ; and that thofe that would not re- 
ceive the love of the Truth, that they might be faved, 
may permiflively be given up to ftrong delufions to be- 
lieve a Lye : That all they might he damned that believed 
not the truths but had pie a fur c in unrig hteoufnefs, 2 Theff. 
2. ii 3 12* 



But that God doth thus (not penally, but) as a bleffing, 
and not upon mens forfaking him and his Truth, but 
while he is communicating Himfilf and hU Truth to 
them, and to make a Deceit or Lye the ordinary Means of 
Truth and Holinefs, and that he fliould do this ordinarily 
as the Govormur, Bene faff or, and Saviour of Mankind, and 
lb make Falfliood (not of his permitting, but of his own 
effecting) to be the ordinary way of frvina men; all this 
is contradiction • contrary to his Will revealed in Nature 
and Scripture, and contrary to his Perfection, who need- 
ed not to Govern the World by Deceit or Lyes, as want* 
ina; neither Poivcr, ivifdom, or Goodnefs to do otherw iie. 
Grace confifteth in the illumin.tticn of the Mnd, which 
revealeth Truth, and not in theErrour or Deception of 
the Mind, by deceiving the Scnfes. Gods Works of Na- 
ture difcerned or perceived by our Natural Senfe and 
Phantafie, and lb by Natural Apprehenfion of the Intel- 
lect, are his fir ft way of Revelation, in which he is moft 
clear and confiant. And we are Men and Animals be- 
fore we are Believers, and Faith is grafted into the Stock 
of Nature, and reclifietb, illuminateth, elevateth, per- 
fecieth it, but doth not deftroy it, deprave it, deceive 
men, and make them mad or fenielefs. 

But you tell us of many excepted Cafes, in which God 
may deceive our Senles, or we may not truft them : No 
doubt, we may never truft them for that which belongs 
not to them, but is beyond them, (as to know whether 
God can affume Flefh, whether he can impregnate a Vir- 
gin • whether there be Trinity in Unit)' : There be many 
things that Senfe is no Judge of, one way or other. But 
when there is an ObjecJ near m, Auly fcituate, which 
Senfe was made to perceive, (as a quantitative, fapid^ 
•eUrifcroHs, &c, fub/lance) and there is no natural defect 



in Medium, Organ, Senfe, Phantafie, or Natural Intellect, 
to tell us of fuch excepted Cafes, is, i. To deface or 
(lander the Providence of God, who Governeth by truth 
and order : 2. To make Mercy to confift in the iubverfi- 
on of Nature, and Penal Atts to be gracious. 3. To 
leave man utterly uncertain of every Article of Faith, 
yea , to bring in Scepticifm , and leave us no cer- 
tainty in the world. For if God may and do, in fo many 
Cafes as you name, deceive all the Senles and Perceptions 
of all men, even his faithfulleft Servants in the World, 
by Himfelf) by Angels, by Devils permitted^ hov fliall 
any man know when he doth otherwise ? You fay, [7/// 
vpe have pojitive grounds to think thcfe.~\ But, if God can 
do thas^ how can you tell that he doth it not without tell- 
ing «*, or giving us pojitive grounds'?. Andwhoknow- 
eth what thofe pofitive grounds are? Or that ever he 
read or heard a word, or law a thing which you may call 
a ground ? For if you know not fir ft that the perception 
of Senfe, and things fen fate is true, you know not that 
ever you heard any thing to fufpend your belief of them : 
Or that what you hear is true. And how will you prove 
againft the Infidels, that God cannot Lye, or deceive us 
by a Prophet, an Angel, or a Voice from Heaven, or a 
Writing, if he can and do daily deceive all our Senfes, 
about fuch Objects as they are made to perceive ? 

And what a War do you raife againft the life of Faith, 
as if it had not difficulties enough without fuch ? If you 
Ihould fet a Candle before Infidels or doubting per/ons, 
and fay, \Jfthisbe Light , the Gofpel is fa/fej would 
you be a Preacher of Chrift or Satan? And if you fet the 
Confecrated Bread And wine before them, and fay, [See 
them^fmell^ tafte, feel them; if this be Bread and wine 
the GofpeJ is falfe . ] would you not be the Preachers of 

T nfi^eltf\; ? ]3 u t 


But I muft confider, that fo much being faid already 
in the forefaid Dialogue, which you give no AnrVer to, 
I muft ratlier flay till that be anfwered, than repeat it 

But, at the leafr, you fatisfie us, when you grant, that 
we muft truft our Senfes 'till we have poftive grounds for 
the contrary • and lo the Cafe before us is this : You (ay, 
[They that will be faved, muft believe that God in mercy to 
illuminate mens minds, deeeiveth all the found mens Sen- 
fes in the world (that try) about thofe things which natu- 
rally .ire the proper Objects of Senfe, and duly qualified.; 
and they m'tfl believe that there is no Bread or H ine,\\hen all 
their Senfes prejent them .is fneb to the Intellect, which ne- 
ceffarily perceive th them ' fuch m [enfrte ; and they mufl 
believe , th.it to govern, illuminate, and fanftife teshj fuch 
deceit, God enable th every Priefl, how ignorant and wicked 
fcever, to verefie all the Contradict 'ions before opened, and 
to vpork, as oft ns he pleaieth, in every Mafs above thirty 
Miracles, with many miraculous aggravations.] And 
the proof of all this is, i. That the fame Cbrift that laid 
[_l am the Door, the true Vine, the shepherd, a Sower, a 
Hu^.' an dm. in, the Bridegroom^ and [pAe ordinarily by Par i- 
bles 7 an 4 faid in this fame Sacrifice or Sacrament [This 
Cup is the New Teflament in my blood :, ] and in all thefc 
is to be under flood p.irahltcally ; yet firing at the fame 
time [This is my Body] is to le understood literally, though 
S. Paul over and over caU it Bread."} 2. And this Expofi- 
tion is delivered to us by the Rom in Pope and h'S Clergie, 
and by forne Prices in the Ninth and Tenth Ages^ when 
their oven Writers fay, that their Popes were M nflers not 
to be named, and the Ages were for horrid Ignorance the 
(hame of the Church. And after that, 1 2 1 5 . a General 
Council Decreed it fir ft, which alfo Decreed the. ex termini 

K tion 

th>» of aUcbrifiUns ds Heretjckj, that will believe mans 
Senses berei» y and tbeExeommunicatisn and Ds portion of all 
Temporal Lords^ that wiU art exterminate at fuck Subjects^ 
and the difobliging their Vaffals from their jiUegiAxce^ and 
giving their DcminUns tc ethers z irhile yet the Judgment 
And Tradition of the fur great? jl f&rt of the cbrijian 
World is againft them^ and the Writings of the Ancient 
Doctors oj c the chttrcb - and the Pope and its Clervie dire 
not pretend to bait received by .Memory and Tradition 
.in Expof'tion of the Bible ', nor do give m any proof of 
their pretended Tradition of this one Text^ that is con- 
(id-rable^ bejides their own bare word, This is the true 


Since the Writing of this, I firft faw Lar rogues French 
Dilcourfe, and therein the Citation of Joh.Parifl- 
enjis Opinion about Tranfubftantiation, and the sorbo- 
nifis determination, that neither -Opinion was /. f^,and 
determined : And did they not thdi know Trad hi in ? 

Since that I have leen Biihop Coufns Hiitory of Tran- 
fubfhntiation, which lb ful!y proveth the NoveJty of it> 
as againtt the Tndiion and Judgment of .' irch, 

and that by Fathers a nd many Councils, in , t jjj 
Innoc. . and evenufrer Petrtu Blefenfls^ and 5 
nen'is {\\ ho firft mane it) ?nd Innoc, 3 , *vho in'il 
ed it, few believed it in moil Countries, jis^tl 1 
Authors confei$ 5 that I repented t. ; ut I had 


medled with die Citation of Authors, which is done by 
him (6 much better : And indeed fuch imaaf* cr I 

ftimonyis produced by him, (and th.it ba fmall 

Yolumn) to prove that the conitant judgment of the 
Chudl hath been agaiulr. TraniubfLntiati-n , thai I 
need not refer the doubting Reader to any other Book, 
nor provoke the Papiih CO trv their if length upon any 
other: ,"i hough HtfpijgidM^ Ujbfr, cbamier, 

. and abundance more, have depx k beyond 
all reafonable contradiction.,)