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Full text of "Full and easie satisfaction which is the true and safe religion : In a conference between D. a doubter, P. a papist, and R. a reformed catholick Christian .."

f, Full and Eafie 





Safe Religion* 


In a Conference 

P. A PAP 1ST, and 

In Four Parts: 

t. The true fating of our Difference , and opening what each 
Religion is- 

II. The true eafie and full Justification of the Reformed or 
Proteftant Religion. 

III. The Protectants Reafons and Charges againfl Popery, 

I V. The firft Charge, viz. Aeiainft Tranfubftantiation made good : 
In which Popery" is proved to be the SHAME OF HUMANE 
NATURE , notorioudy contrary to SENSE , REASON , 
SCRIPTURE and TRADITION, or the Judgement of the 
Antient and the Prefent Church ; devifed by Satan to expole 
Chriftianity to the Scorn of Infidels. 

By Richard "Baxter. 

London,Vrmted, for Nev.Smwow y 2X the Primes 
Arms in Su Pauls Church- yard, 1674, 



"To his (jirace the Vu^eofl^^ 
derdail Hti Mijefttes Commip 
jioner > and ^Principal Secreta* 
ry for the Kingdom of Scot- 
land, &c* 

May it pleafe Your Grace, 

HOnour and Gratitude are aflfe- 
&ioiis much inclined to fpeak 
out, and to publifh theriifelves 
in the predication of their objects : And 
feeing the Literate Tribe have long 
ufed fo much boldnefs with Great 
Names, as to prefix them by Dedicati- 
ons to their Writings, I take that ad- 
vantage to tell the world how grcatly 
Your favour hath long firice obliged me, 

Ai aixd 

and (till continueth fo to do. And 
while I can fay } that I know of no No- 
bleman living who hath read more of my 
Writings than Yoo have done , all that 
know the End of Writing, will confent, 
that there is no Noble Name which! 
fliould prefer. And as I long ago read 
in the Learned Spanhemius's Dedication 
of his VubiaEvangelica p. 3. to You (well ■ 
joyned with the famous Ufrer ) the 
predication of Your Judicium Jupra <zta- 
tern maturum y rerum omnium cognitione fab* 
attum peElus , and that as attefted by 
the llluflrious Duke of %oham , the Mofi 
Sagacious ^Arbiter of ingenies . And years 
and experience have been long adding 
to Your knowledge : Beingnotaftran- 
ger to the Truth of this my felf, I have 
great rcafon to be Ambitious to Jland 
right in Your ejieem: (For who reverenceth 
the Judgement of ignorant Readers? 
Or doth not reverence the Judgement 
of the Wife ? ) And therefore to give 
You an account of mj felf and of this 
writing > Since 

Since I overgrew that Religion whicl 
is taken up moft on humane trujl^ by in- 
creasing knowledge I increafed mens 
difpleaiure ; and my judgement not 
falling juft into the mold of any Se£l 
among Church*diViders y there is fcarce any 
Seci which doth not, according to their 
various interejls , fignifie their difplea- 
fure. Some only by Magijlerial Qenjures^ 
more credibly acquainting the world, what 
they are tbemfebes , than what 1 am r or 
what is my judgement. But from others 
I take a meer (lander for Qemency , and 
as Philojlratus faith , de Ditto (phaVormi ) 
Bt dum Socratts cicutam non bibam , Area 
priyari Jlatua non Udit. Simple Chrijl'uiriu 
ty is my %eligton : I determine to know 
nothing but (Jhrifl Crucified ( and Glori* 
fied. ) And I am paft all doubt , that 
till jimple Chrijliamty become the terms of 
Church Ainity and Qoncord i the Church will 
ntV:r fee Unity or Qoncord \ which ftiall 
prove univerfal or durable. So certain am 1", 
that the Wits of the Learned, much lefs 

A 5^ of 

iof the (jmmunity of ^vulgar Chriftians, 
will never arrive at the ftaturejof^ttco^, 
in numerous and difficult joints : Nor the 
marvellous diverfity 6f Educations, occafions, 
temperatures and capacities , be ever united 
in any thing but what is plain and Jim* 
p!e. And as Certain am I , that the 
llniyerfal (jonjcimce of trite believers will 
never unite, in any thing which is not 
evidently divine. And yet as certain am 
!, that the forfaking of the determina- 
tion of the Holy Ghoft and the Apoftles, 
A&s 1 5. 2 8. and of r Pauls Veafion, Rom. 
14. & 15. hath been the Engine of 
Church-Vivifions and many calajnitous d'u 
flraElions to this day : And that that 
bkfjed Trince \yho muft have the honour 
and comfort of beginning the true heal* 
ing and Qonconl of the Churches, mud 
pare off all their fuperfluities \ and leave 
them at beft among their things indif* 
ferent, and unite them on the terms of 


; And as to' fopery I have certainly 


found,thatthe Crofs Interefts AndTafsions 
of Difputers have made us (though re- 
ally too diftant) to feem commonly 
about many Qottrin&ls more diftant than 
indeed we are : And that it had been 
better with us, if fuch men as judici- 
ous LudoV. le Blank, had had the dating 
of our Controversies at the firft , that 
differing words and methods might not 
| have pafled with either fide for dam* 
noble errors in the faith. I mean in the 
points of foreknowledge , predeftination , 
providence, predetermination^ concurfe, origi* 
nal Jin , free-will , univerfal Redemption y 
J'ufficient Grace , effectual Grace > the nature 
ofrattbj Jujlification, Sancitfcation , Merit ^ 
Good Works , Certainty of Jujlification J and 
of Salvation, VerJeVerance, &c. For my 
knowing this to be true, I am cenfured by 
thofe on one extream y as too favourable 
to the Papifts ( being indeed an Ene- 
my to injury, calumny., uncharitable- 
nels or cruelty to any in the world. ) 
But I am much more difpleafing to the 
A 4 Roman 

tRjman patty • Bccaufe I know, that One 
wan is mturatly uncapable of being the 
Monarch of all the world : That the IQng 
of%sm (as the GeographiaNubienfis calls 
him ) was never by Chrift made Kjng 
of Kings and Lord of Lords : That he ne* 
<ver wus y nor (an be a Paftor at the^i* 
tipodes y and over all the Earth, or as far 
as Vrake and Candijl? did Navigate : That 
it'* a lorry Argument, [ Monarchy is the 
bejl Government : Ergo, An unffrerjal Mo* 
narchy is be ft : J That the Government 
fetled in Nature and Scripture , is for 
Princes to rule Churchmen and aU y by the 
Sword , and the (Pajiqrs of all particular 
Churches , to rule their Congregations by 
the Churcb*I{eys ,, that is, by the Word, 
ufing Synods for due concord and cone* 
fyondency : And t/;w much will do better 
than all the ftir that the Clergies Ambition 
hath made in the world. 

I know that the Tope ftandeth on no 
better a foundation than the other four 
Patriarchs : And that he was but the 


chief Prelate or Patriarch in one Empire, as 
the Archbifhop of Canterbury is in tin* 
gland j And that the Greek Church never 
took his Primacy in that one Empire to 
be of ViYme (light : For if they had, 
they had never Jet up the Patriarch of 
Constantinople againjl him > who never 
claimed h'u Primacy as jure ViVmo. Iknout 
that the great Council of Qhalcedon de- 
creed, Att. \6. Bin. 754. [" We fol- 
" lowing alwayesthe definitions of the 
" holy Fathers and the Canon , have 
cc our felves alfo defined the fame 
cc things, concerning the Priviledges of 
i the lame Moft Holy Church of Con* 
ic jtantmople^ TSleu> %ome ; For to the Seat 
cC of Old %ome becaufe of the Empire of 
<c that City, the Fathers confequently ga<vt 
" the Priviledges : And the one hun- 
" dred and fifty Bifliops moft beloved 
cc of God, being moved with the fame 
"intention, have given equal Privi- 
" ledges to the Moft Holy Seat of New 
i %ome : Reafonably Judging that the 


''City adorned with the Empire and 
" Senate, fhall enjoy equal Friviledges 
l € with Old Regal <%ome. 1 

1 know that their late Bifliop of 
Qyalcedon faith ( againfl: Biflicp ffram* 
hall, Surrey, pag. 69) CTb Hi itjufficetb, 
that theHtijhop of Rome is St. Peters Sac* 
cejfor • and this all Fathers tefiifie. {But 
whether he he fo jureDivino vel humano 
is no point of faith. Vid. (Bellarm. 1.2. de 
<Pont. in. And Holdtn Jnalyf fid. 1. 1 . r.p. 
p. \6i. Mult a funt qu<z traditione uniyerfa 
firmiter innttuntur ( puta S. ( Petru)n fuijfe 
^omd ) qu& reVelata non junt - ideoque ab 
articulorum fidei Catholic* numero exclu* 

I know that there never was fuch a 
thing as a true Univerfal Council in the 
world ( unlefs Chrift and his Apoftles 
were fuch ) ; nor ever vmft> or will, or 
can be. 

I know that they were called Uniyer* 
fal but as to one Empire : and that Empe^ 
rours called them together P who had no- 

thing to do without that Empire . and chat 
(unleis accidentally any inconfidera- 
ble number ) no Qhurches out of the Em* 
pire were jummoned, or Jpit their (Bifhops 
thither : Which needs no other proof 
than the knowledge of the limits of the 
tf{oman Empire, and the ISlotitU Epijcopa* 
tuum y and the Names jubfcrihed to each 
Council in <Binnius and the reft. 

I know that long ago their %aynerw 
laid ( Qrnt. Waldenf. Qatal. in Biblioth. <Pa* 
trumTdm. 4. f .773.) £ The Churches of the 
Armenians, and Ethiopians y and Indians y and 
the reft which the Jpoftles converted y are not 
under the Church of Rome. ] And that 
Godignus and others make no doubt 
but the Abaf sines had the faith from 
the dayes of St. liatthew and the Eu- 

1 know that Theodoret. Hftor. SanEl. 
<?atr. c. 1. faith., [James the fyfnop o/Ni- 
fibis came to the Synod of Nice • for Ni- 
fibis then obeyed the Roman Empire. 
Nothing can be mere plain. 

I know 

I know that Jacob, de Vitriaco ( and 
others ) fay ( Hift. Orient, c. 77. ) that 
Q the Qhurches of the Eajlerly parts of Afia 
alone exceeded in number the Chrijlians ei* 
ther of the Greek or Latin Churches ] ; And 
that Brocbardus that lived at Jerufalem 
faith, that C tbofe called Schifmaticks by us 
are far better men than thoje of the Roman 
Church. ] 

And to perfwade the Kings of other 
kingdoms y that the neceffary way of 
ChurchAinion , is to unite all their Sub* 
jetlXhurcbes under the Patriarchs of ano* 
ther Empire, is no wifer than to tell all 
the world that they muft be under the 
%foop of Canterbury. 

1 know that it was long ere Our antu 
ent (Britains , and efpecially Your Scots, 
Would fo much as eat with the ( I{pman 
Clergy, ( as (Beda fheweth. ) 

And 1 know that their Melcb. Canus 
faiths ( hoc. Com. cap. 7. foL zoi.) \Jlhat 
el not only the Greeks, but almojt all the rejl 
cc of the %fro^s of the whole world , have 


"fought to dejlroy the priviledges of the 
" Church of Rome ; And indeed they had 
€i on their fide both the Arms of Emperours 
le and the greater number of Churches : Jnd 
<c yet they could never prevail to abrogate 
ic the power of the One Tope of %ome. ] 
Was this Tope then ( or the %oman 
Church) UniverfaU Befides that, to 
this day } they are but about the third or 
fourth part of the Chriftian world. 

And 1 know that General Councils are 
their Tjligion : and what the General ap* 
proved Council uLateranfublnnoc.^ hath 
Decreed againjl Temporal Lords and their 
'Dominions , and abfolVmg of their SubjeBs 
from their Oaths ofFideltty: Befides what 
Greg. 7. hath laid in his Concil. ^pm 9 
of his power to take down and fet up 

I he knowing of thefe things, maketh 
me taken for their enemy. And their 
Image of Worfjrrip in an unknown Tongue 7 
with their BreadAVorflrip and multi- 
tude of ludicrous deceitful toyes, are things 


which my foul can never be recon- 
ciled to : Much lefs to that renuncia- 
tion of humanity which hereafter I de- 
tes5t, in the following Treatife. 

And having given You this Account 
of my felf , I add as to this Treatije^ 
i. It grieved me to hear that/o many re* 
fufed the (parliaments 'Declaration againft 
Tranfuhfiantiatwn : And I delired to ftiew 
them what it is. 

j 2. Inftead of joy ning with thole who 
talk much of the danger of Topery in the 
Land ( to keep it out,) I thought it 
better to pubhp? the %eafons which fatis* 
fie me againfl it, and leave the luccels of 
all to God. 

3. And having occafion to re-print 
the Firft Part or my Ksy for Qatholicks, 
with Corrections, inftead of the TSlame be* 
fore prefixed, ( of one whofe face I ne- 
ver law , nor ever had a word from, 
but ignorantly endeavoured to have 
provoked him to do good) I thought 
lour Name fitteft to be gratefully fubfti- 

tuted r 

tuted, who were the firjl then that checked 
my imprudent-temerity. 
J Though I was not fo vain , as to ex- 
pert of late in your multitude of great- 
er bufinefs, that You fhould read over 
my more tedious Writings, I defpair not 
but You may find leifure in perufing 
this , to fee that I have prefixed Your 
Name to nothing , but what Senfe and 
Q{eafon and Religion do avow. And fo 
Craving Your Pardon for the boldnefs 
and tedioufnefs of this Addrefs, I reft, 

Xour Graces humble much 
obliged Servant, 

Richard Baxter. 



, I 


ch oS % eft fl%<%0%(T: v * a% % {ft 3E {ft ro<fig: o£ % %cfc(r^h% 

?imiiit»tn turn 



y | ^Htf Dialogue corned ho£ ft j/0#, 
yrom dtf apprebenfion of any extra* 

J&^ ordinary excellency of it y as if it 
did much more than is already done: but as 
extorted by mens necefsity . i. Becaufe Jo 
many ignorantly turn ( Papifts of late - 2, And 
fome are pleajed to Say (I dare not fay, 
To Think ) that it is long of men in my 
condition . 3. And it is the Art of the ^apifis 
( which our ajanity encourageth ) to feek to 
bring the old "Books into oblivion ( which are 
unanjwerabU ) • and to call ftdl for new. 

The intended life of tins is y 1.T0 tell 
thoje that wiU dtfpute with a Tapifty on what 
terms and in what order to proceed ? left they 
be cheated into afnare. 

{a) 2*To 

2. To teach the Ignorant Doubters truly to 
under ftmdy wherein the difference between 
us and the Vapijls doth indeed confift ; that 
the talk of Sectaries Calling that whuh dif- 
pleafeth them , Popery y nor the jcandal of 
our red or feeming divijions , may not de* 
hide them , nor Tapifts f>u%gle them by put- 
ting them to prove every word in our thirty 
nine Articles or other Writings. 

3. To %efohe all that will be ^efotved, 
by Senfes,Reafon,Scripture, or the Judge- 
ment andTradition of the Qwrch* 

Of the multitude of %eafons againjl To; 
pery enumerated, I have here made good but 
one y by a f pedal dijputation • becatif el would 
not make the ( Book too big. The rcjl Ifhall 
eajtly prove in another Volume , if greater 
work and fiortnefs of life do not hinder it - 
( rvhtch 1 fully expeH.) Jndlefl lhaVe no 
more opportunity to an fiver their Charges 
agunfl us on the other fide 7 1 have reprinted 
and added ( Corrected ) the frjl part of my 
Key for Catholicks , where it is long ago 
done j and never anjwered. There is extant 


one Piece of theirs againfl me , unanfwered y 
called, Mr. Johnfon'* Rejoynder about the 
Vifibility of the Church : which 1 feru 
oufly prof ef s 1 have left unan fiver ed, a,s uu 
terly unworthy of my precious 1 imejull I have no 
greater matter to do, which 1 hope will never 
be. And he that will well Jludy his opening 
of the terms in the latter end, will jee to how 
pitiful a cafe thty are reduced, I conclude 
with thisjolemn Vrofefsion ■ That 1 am fa* 
tisfied of the truth of what 1 write, andmufi 
.dye ere long in the faith which I here profefs, 
and lay my hopes of endUfi happine/s on no 
other way : And that I would joyfully receive 
any Saving Truth, from Papifls or any other, 
who will bring it me, with Juch evidence as 
may make it indeed my own. The Lord 
Unite us by Truth , Love and Humility. 

Septemb. i. 

Richard Baxter, 








Hat is the Proteftant s Religion , and what the 
Papifts? pag. I. 

Chap. i. The occaflon of the Conference : w™ an 
humbling confideration to ftaggerers. ibid. 

Chap. 2. The Conditions of the Conference. p. 6. 

Chap. 3. What is the Religion of the Proteftant s. Of 
the name Proteftant : The Auguftane and other Con- 
feffions : The thirty nine Articles : The EJfentials of 
Chriftianity to be diftingnijhed from the Integrals 
and Accidentals, p. 9« 

Chap. 4. What is the Papifts Religion : out of Veron, 
Davenport, &c. p. 25 . 


harteen Principles in which thePapifts and P rot eft ants 
feem agreed ; by which the Proteftant Religion is by 
the Papifts confejfed and maintained to be all true* 

p. 40. 
(a 3; PART 

The Contents. 


Twenty five Charges againft Popery enumerated, to he all 
in order proved ; as Reasons why no one that hath 
Religion, or Senfe and Reason, fliould turn Papift. 

p. 61. 


The firft Charge made good , viz. again ft Tranfub- 
ftantiation : In which Popery is fully proved to be 
the jhame of Humane Nature j contrary to SENSE, 
the Judgement of the ant tent and the prefent Church ; 
devifed by Satan to expofe firijhamty to the Scorn 
of Infidels. P*75' 

Chap. i. The firft Reafon to prove that there is Bread 
after the $nfecration 9 from the certainty o.f the In- 
tellects Perception by the means of fenfe. ibid. 

Twenty Reafons again ft the denying of common fenfe s. 


Chap. 2, The Papift s Anfwcrs to, all this confuted. 

p. 88. 

Chap. 3. The fecond Argument again ft Tranfubftanti- 
ittion from the contradictions of it. p. 96. 

Chap. 4. The third Argument from the certain falfljood 
of their multitudes of feigned Miracles inTranfub- 
ftantiation* Thirty one Miracles in it enumerated^ 
with Twenty aggravations of thofe Miracles, p. 99- 

Chap. 5. The Minor proved, viz. That the fe Miracles 
are falfe or feigned, p, JIO. 


The Contents. 

Chap. 6, Arg. 4. Tranfubftantiation contrary to the 
exprefs Word of God. p. 117. 

Chap. 7. Arg. 5. All thefe Miracles are proe fiefs : yea t 
the Scripture abundantly diretleth us otherwife to ex- 
pound, This is my Body. p. 123. 

Chap . 8. Arg. 6. Tranfubftantiation nullifieth the Sa- 
crament, p. 128. 

Chap. 9. The Novelty of Tr an fab ft ant i at ion, as con- 
trary to the faith of the antient foriftians : And the 
Angularity, contrary to the Judgement andTradition 
of mo ft of the Chriftian world. p. 132. 

Chap. 1 o. The fecond part of the Controverfte : That 
it is not Chrifts very ftejh and bleed into which the 
Bread and Wine is turned. p. 146. 

Chap* 1 1 . The Conclufton : The Scandal of our diffe- 
rence removed. Whether the falfoood of one Article 
prove the Papifts foundation falfe ? Whether it do 
fo by the Prot eft ants ? Whether Papifts have any more 
Infallibility than ethers? The necefftty of difcerning 
the Effentials of Chriftianity. The diftintlion of Ex- 
plicite and Implicite faith confidered* How come fo 
many Princes y Nobles , Learned men, and whole Nati- 
ons to be Papifts ? All Chriftians be fides Papifts,* are 
of one Church, though of many opinions. How come 
fo many among us at home of late inclinable to Po- 
pery ? What hope of Concordwith the Papifts ? How 
to help them off their Councils ? Snares in the point 
of Tranfubftantiation. Of their denying the Cup to 
the Laity* p. 152. 



IHope the Printers Errata are not many ? and 
I am difcouraged from gathering them ^ be- 
caufe I fee men had rather err thcmfelvcs , and 
calumniate the Author , than take notice of 
them : So hath Mr. Danvcrs done by me in a 
Book againft Infant Baptijm , where as an In- 
troduction to abundance of miftakes in Hifto- 
ry, he abufeth his Reader by feveral fcraps of a 
Book of mine, fo curtailed as to be inefficient 
to fignifie the fenfe- And among them feigneth 
me tD write (chr. D/reff.p. 3. j^£. 885. /. 13. 
£ to Inftitute Sacraments ] as that which man may 
do, inftcad of [_ Not to Inftitute Sacrament s~\ ; 
and fo maketh his credulous flock to believe that 
I aflert that very thing which I write againft : 
Though the place was markt with a Star in the 
Errata^ and the Reader de fired fpecially to Cor- 
rect it. But fuch dealing is now grown fo com- 
mon with fuch men, that we muft bear it as the 
crfed: of their difeafe. 

PART. f. 

What is the Troteflants <l{eligion, and what the 


The occafionof the Conference. ^ 

T R, I am come to crave your help in a 
• matter of great importance to me : I 
was bred a Proteftant • but the Dif~ 
courfes of fome Roman Catholicks, 
have brought me into great doubts, 
whether I have not been all this while: 
deceived : And though I cannot difpute the cafe my felf 
with you, Idefire you to difpute it in my hearing with 
a Catholick Prieft whom I fhali bring to you. 

R. With all my heart : But let me firft ask you a few 

Que ft. i. Did you ever underfland what the Prote- 
flants Religion is ? 

D. I take it to be the 39 Articles, Liturgieand Go- 
vernment of the Church of England* 

K. No wonder if you be eafily drawn to doubt of 
that Religion which you no better underfland. Can 
you hold it, and not know what it is ? 

Qncfl. 2. Do you know what it is to be a Chriftian ? 
D. It is to believe in Chrift, and to Love and obey 
Him. Cur Bap.ifm is our Chriftening. 

R. Very true :' And in your Baptifm you are Dedi- 
cated and Vowed to God the Father, Son, and Holy 

B Gbott 


Ghoft, renouncing the Lulls of the Flefh, the World 
and the Devil. 

Que ft. 3 . And have you been a true Chriftian, and 
lived according to this Vow ? Have you obeyed God 
more than the defires of your flefh ? Have you prefer- 
red the Kingdom of Heaven before all the pleafures, ho- 
nours and riches of this world ? Have you fincerely fub- 
mitted to the healing faving Do&rine, Law and ex- 
ample of Chrift, and to the fan&ifying motions of his 
Holy Spirit ? Ana have you lived foberly, righteoufly, 
and Godlily in the world, and made it your care and bu- 
finefsto deny your felf, andmortifTe all flefhly inordinate 
defires, as it is the care of fenfual men to gratifie them ? 
D. I have had my faults as all men have -, but I hope 
none can fay but I have lived honeftly towards all • Affifif 
I have been faulty in drinking, fports or gaming, it hath 
been to no ones injury but my own. 

R. I ask you not whether you are a/inner •, For fo are 

all men. But whether you 

Vohnf. Nov. Retr. k 426. Protr- are a trH i y p en i tem Convert - 

itants formally fuch, have not , r J , ? , 

enough to be brought to the on- ed jimier j and whether yet 

feigned Love o: God above all you are f m t0 y 0ur £ apt if 

thills, and fpecial Love to his J ■> - J 

fcrvants, :>ni unfeimcd willing- malvoxv and Covenant f Can 

hat VS* kn'^cTr Y our Confcience fay, that you 

feeling thn . ju love God o<* h's Love^and Truft and obey God y 

fervants, or willingH.fi to obey, and your Re deemer, before all 

the world - 7 and that you love 
not Pleafure, Riches and Honour, more than God and 
Holinefs and Heaven ? and that it is more of the care and 
buiincfs of your life, to Know and Love and ferve God 
better, and to make lure of your falvation, than to pleafe 
ywft Bcffi, or pro cr in N world ? I .. a word > 9 Do you 
tear ily and in vour ra&ice, take God for your God, 
|ey< for your Ail, an . :mlt, for your Teacher, King 
land Saviour, and the Holy Ghoft for your Sandifier, 



turning in heart and life, from the Devil, the world, and 
the (infill pleafures of the flefh ? This is the queflion 
which I defire you to anfwer. 

But I will prevent your anfwer left you miftake my 
purpofe, and think I make my felf your ConfefTour, and 
I will tell you why I ask the queflion. 

Either you have thus Kept your Baptifmal Fory, by a 
Godly life, or elfe you have broken it by worldlinef s and 
fenfuality, &c. If you have kept it, and are a truly 
Godly perfon, you have refolved your own doubt, and 
abfolutely confuted Popery already. For no honeft 
man and true Chrifttan can poilibly turn Papift without 
grofs contradiction. 
D. How prove you that. 

R. Mofteafily: I pray you do but mark : i»Itis 
their principal Doctrine that the Pope is the Head of the 
Univerfal Church on earth 5 and that the Church fub- 
jefted to him, is the Univerfal Church -, and that out of 
that Church there is no falvation ; and that no one is a 
true member of Chrift and his Church, who is not a 
fubjeftof the Pope. 

2. And they all confefs that every one fhall be faved 
that is a true Chriftian, and keepeth his Baptifmal Cove- 
nant, and that Loveth God above all. So that they muft 
needs hold that none in the world but Papifls, do truly 
Love God,& keep that Covenant,and are true Chriflians. 
Now if you can know that you have the true Love of 
God, and are true to your Baptifm, you muft needs con- 
fefs that Popery is falfe, which faith that none Love 
God above all but Papifts. 

D. But what if I have not Loved God, and obeyed 
him, above my flefh ? 

R. I'le tell you what followeth. i. It is no wonder 
if you forfakethe Proteftants Religion, who never truly 
entertained it. If your Heart and hifc were not de- 

B 2 Wtetl 


voted unf eigne dly to Qod, you were no true Christian, 
nor indeed had any true Religion at all : And he that 
hatli no Religion, turneth from none which he truly had. 
If you were never ztrne Chrifttan, you were never a 
true Proteflant : And then what wonder if you turn 
Papift ? For you have no experimental Knowledge of 
that Religion which you feem to forfake. 

2. And how could you exped better, but that God 
fhould penally forfake you, and give you over to believe 
deceits, if you have dealt fo falfly and deceitfully with 
him, as to live to the world and flefh which you renoun- 
ced, and negled that God and Savtour and fandifier to 
whom you were fo folemnly devoted ? And if you have 
been fo treacherous and unwife, as to prefer a bruitifh 
tranfitory plcafure, before Gods Love and the Joyes of 
Heaven ? 

3. And what honour is it to the Church of Rome y 
that none but Infidels and falfe-hearted hypocrites, and 
perfidious breakers of their Covenant with God, did 
ever turn to them > If you turn Papift, you confefs that 
you were a wicked hypocrite before. 

4. But the chief thing which I would tell you is, 
that turn up and down as oft as you will, to this Church 
or that Church, to this fide or that fide, you will never 
be faved, unlefs you become a holy y ferious, mortified 
Chriflian : As long as you love pleafures, wealth and ho- 
nour more than God and Holinef* and Heaven, youfhall 
never be faved, whether you be Papift, or a profefTed 
Proteftant. It would make the heart of a Chriftian ake, 
to fee fo many thoufands cheated by the Devil, to take 
«his opinion or that opinion, called the true faith, and 
this fide or that fide, called the true Church, to be to 
'them inftead of a holy heavenly heart and life* And 
how many thowfands, efpecially Papifts, that are truly 
t)f no RtHoiotiy do difpute, and. plot and difquiet the 



world, as/«?r Religion, To hear a prophane man fwear 
that his Religion is right • or that man. to think to be 
faved for being of the true Church and faith, whofe 
heart was never fet on Heaven, but liveth in drunken- 
nefs, lying, idlenefs, fornication, and thinketh that the 
Priefts abfolution fets all right again. Without true 
Holinefs no man fliall be faved, what Church foever he 
joynwith > 9 and with it no man (hall be damned. For 
God cannot hate them that have his nature , and 

D. Well fir : I came not to difpute with you, but to 
defire you to meet a Roman Catholick Prieft, that I may 
hear you both together. 

R. I have the greater hopes of you, becaufe you have 
fomuch regard of your foul, as to be willing to hear 
what can be faid. For raoft that turn to them, never 
come to an impartial tryal, But rafhly follow the de- 
ceiver, or flay till they are fecretly hardened by falfe in- 
sinuations, and then take on them to defire to hear both, 
when they are firft refolved to be gone. 

But you muft tell me what is the queftion that you de- 
fire fliould bt difputed. 

D. I would know whether the Papifts or the Prote- 
ftants be the True, and fafe Religion ? 

R. I undertake to give you that plain undenyable evi- 
dence for your resolution, which fhould fully fatisfie any 
reafonable man, at leaft that profeiTeth himfelf a Chri- 
stian .• fo be it you will perform thefe reafonable condi- 
tions : i. That you will be impartially willing to know 
the truth. 2. That you will honeftly refolve to Live 
according to it when you know it, and to be True to the 
True Religion. 3 . That you will bring fuch a man to 
confer with me, who will yield to the Reafonable Condi- 
tions of a difputant, fuch as your Doubt and the nature 
of the matter doth notorioufly require, and not a Knave, 

B3 and 


and ftudied Deceiver, who will fet himfelf purpofely to 
hide the truth. 

IX Thefe conditions are fo reafonable that I mufl not 
deny them. 


The Conditions of the Conference -, between a P. And 
R. and D. 

R* CIR, I am defired by this perfon, who is brought 

i3by fome of you to doubt of our Religion,to debate 
this Cafe with you in order to his fatisfa&ion, Whether 
the Papifis or the Proteftants be the True and Safe Re- 
ligion ? 

P. That is too large a Queftion : We cannot difpute 
of all our Religion at once : I will begin with you, 
about fome one of the Articles of the Church of En- 
gland, or the Visibility of your Church in all Ages, or 
the Refolution of your faith , &?c. And this I will 
do only on thefe conditions, i. That you bring fome 
cxprefs Text of Scripture, which without your Inter- 
pretation, Reafonings or Confequences, doth affert that 
Article of yours which I fhall faccufe, or contradict 
any Article of our faith, which fhall be queftioned. 
2. Or if you will go from the exprefs words to Rea- 
foning, that we keep to the ffri&eft Rules of Logick, 
and that you ufe nothing but Syllogifm, and that all be 
done in writing, and not by word of mouth. 

R. Neighbour D. you promifed me to bring another 
kind of Difputant : You hear his conditions: you fhall 
hear my anfwer. 

i. The Cafe which you told me you were in doubt 
of, and defired fatisfa&ion in, was Which is the True 



and Safe Religion I This he refufeth to Difpute* Pre- 
tending that we cannot difpute of our whole Religion 
at once. But did you never hear him give any Rea- 
fons againfl our Religion ? If he have, Why can he not 
do it now ? I exped not all in a word , but let him 
give them one by one, and fay his worft. I am fure I 
can give you many againfl theirs : And we will after 
debate them particularly as largely as you pleafe. 

2. \*i Writing be it that you defire for yourfatisfa- 
&ion, I ask you, whether you have read all, or the 
fourth part, of what is written againfl Popery already. 
Have you re_ad Dr. Challoner of the Catholick Church ? 
Dr. White y Dr. Field y Dr. Dow name of Antichrift, 
ChiHingwortb, Dr. <*Abbot, Dr. WiUet, Bifhop Vjher, 
Bifhop Morton , Dr. Stilling fleet , and an hundred 
more? Why fliould I expecf that you fhould read 
what I fhall write, if you will not read what's writ- 
ten already ? 

3. Can you (lay fo long unrefolved without injury 
to your foul, till he and I have done writing ? You 
cannot but know, that from Sheets we muft proceed to 
the writing of Volumes, in anfwering each other, as 
others have done. And this is like to be many years 
work, for men that have other bufinefs : And how know 
you that we fhall all Live folong ? 

4. Are you able when it cometh to tedious Volumes 
to examine them, and find who is in the right ? Or will 
you not rather take him to conquer, who hath the laft 
word ? And it's like that will be the longeft liver ? 

5. And as to a ftricl: fyllogifticai form, do you un- 
derfland that beft } I avoid it not, but fhall confent to 
ufe it as far as you underfland it. Do you know ail 
the Logical forms of arguing, all Moods and Figure*, 
and all the fallacies ? Or do you not perceive , that you 
have broken your promife with me , and brought a 

B 4 friend 


friend of darknefs, who cometh purpofely to hide the 
truth ? 

D. Imuft needs profefs, that the Queftion which I 
would have debated, is, Which is the True and Safe Reli- 
gion ? And that it is not tedious writings, nor long de- 
Tayes, but prefent conference which muft fatisfie me. 
And that it is plain Scripture and Reafon that muft fa- 
tisfie me, who underftand not Logick. I pray let me 
hear your own Conditions which you think more juft. 

R. The Conditions which the nature of the Caufe 
direc^ech us to, are thefe. 

I. That we firft truly ftate the queftion to be di- 
fputed : For we cannot difpute till we are agreed of 
what : That is, i . That we agree what we mean by 
our £ Religion ] ; and 2. That I tell you, what is the 
Religion of Proteftants, which I undertake to defend : 
And that he tell us what is the Religion of the Roma- 
nics, which muft be compared with it. 

I I. That our Conference confift of thefe feveral 

1. That premifing the principles in which we are 
agreed, I tell you the Reafons why you fhould not be 
a Papift. 

2. That he tell you the Reafons why you fhould turn 
Papift, or what he hath againft Our Religion. 

3. That then we come to difpute thefe Reafons di- 
ftin&ly : where I will prove my charges againft them, 
and he fhall prove his charges againft us one by one. 

III. And that in all our difputes, we fhall confent, 
1. Not to interrupt each other in fpeech 5 but if the 
length feern to overmatch the hearers memory, we will 
take brief Notes to help our memories, as we go, and 
crave the recitation of what fhall be forgotten : For the 
ftrength of Truth Iyeth fo much in the connexion of its 
parts, that when it is mangled into fcraps. by uncivil in- 


terruptions, it is deformed and debilitated and cannot 
be well underftood. 

2. That we bind our felves by folemn promife, to 
fyeak nothing which we unfeignedly judge not to be 
truth ? nor any thing defignedly to hide or refill the 
truth which we difcern. 

Thefe terms are fo juft and necefTary , that I will 
avoid him as a fraudulent wrangler who will deriy 
them. For I come Hot to fcold, nor to try who hath 
the ftrongeft Lungs , the nimbleft Tongue , or the 
lowdeft voice, or the greateft confidence, or fierceft paf- 
fion -, but to try who hath the truth, and which is the 
true way to Heaven. . For the fervant of the Lord muft 
not ftrive - ? cfpecially about words and barren notions ; 
for that doth but tend to increafe ungodlinefs. 

D. Your Method is fo reafonable, and fo fuited to 
my own neceftity, that I muft profefs no other can fo 
much tend to my fatisfaction : And therefore I hope 
it willnotberefufed. 

(Here after long ,oppofition, the V. at laft agreeth 
to thefe terrqs ). 


What it the Religion of the Troteftants. 


I. HpHe word [Religion ~\ is fometimes taken 
X Objellively ; And fo I mean by it, £ The 
objetts of Religious Belief > Love and Tr alike ^ ] which 
are, i . The Things themfelves ^ which are the principal 
objeEls ( called by Logicians, The Incomplex terms. ) 
2. The organical objett j or the Revelation of thefe 
Things - 5 containing i. The Words or other Signs: 
2, The fenfe or notions fignified. 



For inftance, Matth. 17. 5. [_This is my Beloved fin 
in whom I am well p leafed, 3 Here 1 , The Real Incom- 
flex objett is Chrifi Himfelf, ihe beloved Son of God, 
and God the Fathers well-pleafednefs in him. 2. The 
fignal part of the organical objed , or Revelation, is 
the Words themfelves, as fpoken then, and written now. 
3. The fgnified notions are the Meaning of the words, 
and are the chief part of the orgamcal objetf, that is 
the Divine Revelation, 

The word \_Religion^\ is of larger extent in its 
fenfe than i" Faith 2 -> For it containeth all that Reve- 
lation which God hath made Neceffary to falvation ; 
which is twofold, 1 . That which is to inform the nn- 
derflandmg with neceffary knowledge and faith. 
2. That which is neceffary to a Holy Will and a Holy 
Life, to the Love of God and man, and to well doing ^ 
which are Precepts, Promifes and Threatnings. 

1 1. The word £ Religion ~] is oft taken alfo fubje- 
Bivcly ( as they Fpeak ) - y For the Alls and habits of 
Love and Obedience, 

Now I fuppofe we are agreed that it is not Religion 
in this laft fenfe that we are todifpute of ( which is as 
divers as perfons are : ) But it is that which we call 
Objective Religion, even the Organical part directly. 
And if by all this *Z). underftandeth us not, in plainer 
words, our Queftion is, Of the True Divine Revelation, 
viz. Which is the True Rule of Faith, Will and Prattice ; 
that which is held to be fuch by the Proteflants : or that 
which is held to be fuch by the Papifts ? 

T. I grant you, that this is the flate of the Que- 

R, I here declare to you then, What is the Religion of 
the Proteftants. IT IS THE LIGHT and LAW OF 



Here note i. That our Religion hath its Efjential 
parts ♦, And its Integral parts and Accidentals. I. The 
Effentials of our Religion, are contained in the Baptif 
mal Covenant •, which is expounded in the CREED, 
( as. delivered and expounded by Chrift, and the Law 
of Nature* ) 

1 1. Our Entire Religion, in the Effentials, Integrals 
and needful Accidentals is contained wholly in the 
Law of Nature and the Canonical Serif tures. 

The Sffentials are delivered down to us two wayes : 
I. In Scripture with the reft ^ 2. By the fire tradition 
of the Vniverfality ofChriflians, in attual BaptizJngs, 
and the daily profeffwn ofChriftianity. This is all the 
Protefiants Religion. If you fatten any other on us, 
we deny it ^ we own no other. And none know What 
is my Religion, that is, What I take for the Rule of my 
holy Faith, Love and Life, fo well as niyfelf 

P. This is meer craft : you will make that only 
which is paft controverfie among us, to be Tour Religi- 
on, that fo your Religion may be paft controverfie too. 

R. It is fuch Craft as containeth that naked truth, 
which we truft all our own falvation on. I fay that 
I have no other Religion ^ And if you know better than 
I, difproveme. 

P. I difprove you three wayes. I. Becaufe the 
Name Protefiant fignifieth no fuch Religion, but fome- 
what elfe lately taken up. II. Becaufe the Augu- 
fiane Confeffion, the thirty nine Articles and fuch like, 
are by your felves called The Articles of your Religion. 
III. Becaufe all your Writings declare, that befides 
thefe, you hold all thofc controverted points, which are 
contrary to that which you call Popery. 



R. I prfly you mark T>. that he would perfwade you 
that he ktioweth my Religion better than / do my [elf > 
What if I fhould pretend the like as to his Religion f 
<^ere I to be believed ? 

P. No : but if you have an odd Religion of your 
own, that prove th it not to be the Trot eft ant Religion. 

R. Remember D. that I come not hither to perfwade 
yon to any other Religion, than this which I have men- 
tioned. Let him talk as long as he will what is ^ other 
mens opinions, I perfwade yon to nothing but this, to 
take Gods Law of Nature and the Scripture for your 
Religion. Either this is Right ox Wrong. If Right, fix 
here and I have 'done, \iWrong, let that be difputed . 

But yet I open to you all his three deceits. 

I. The name Troteftant doth not fignifie our Reli- 
gion, but our Frotefting againft the Papifis corruptions 

and additions. I have no Re- 
ject againft chiUwgmnh cb. 2. ligion but Chriftianity : '" J am 
%Z ttH?fZ*$?Z% * ChriftUn, and that fignifieth 

moujly to agree, than in this, that all my Religion* I am a Ca- 

t*ZZ!&;°,££" falWphrifiUn , that -is, of 

xvbkh they hold as the oniyfoun- the Common Chriflian Faith 
ihenVlnh t ™?w&ffif l £<£ andChurch,z\\& not of any he - 
this Confdfion. retical dividing Sett : And I 

am a Reformed Troteftant 
Chriftian, becaufe / renounce Topery. Therefore I ra- 
ther fay £ The Troteftants J than the £ Troteftant ] 
Religion. As if I were among Lepers ; If I fay; / am 
no Leper, that fignifieth not my EJfence : But if I fay, 
\_I am a Man, and I am ?iet a Leper, ] I fpeak my 
Nature, and my freedom from that difeafe. So if I fay 
I am zChriftian Troteftant, I mean only that I am a 
Chriflian, and no Tapift, or renouncing Topery ^ as by 
the word \_ Cathotickjj I renounce all Seels and Schifms* 
I tell you, This is my meaning, when I fay , / am a. 


Trotefiant : and can you tell my meaning better than 

1 1. And as to what he faith of the thirty nine Ar- 
ticles and o:her Church Confeftions, I anfwer, None of 
thefe are our Religion, in the fenfe now in queftion • 
that is, They are not taken by us to be \_ the Divine 
Revealed-Rule of our Faith , Love and Life ] which is 
our Religion now difputed of. And that this is fo, I prove 
to you paft all queftion. 

For i . Elfe (hould we have as many Religions as wc 
have Qwrch Confejfwns, and fhould alter our Religion 
as oft as we alter our Confeffwns ^ and our Religion 
fhould be as New a9 thofe Confejfions: All which the 
Proteftants abhor. 

2, All thofe very Confeffions themfelves do affert 
that Gods Word is our only Religion, and all mens Wri- 
tings and Decrees are lyable to miftakes : To pafs by 
all the reft, thefe are the words of our fixth Article, 
£ " Holy Scripture containeth all things NecefTary to 
" faivation : fo that whatfoever is not read therein, nor 
lc may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any 
Ki man, that it fhould be believed as an Article of faith, 
" or be thought Requifite or neceffary to faivation ]. 
What would you have more plain and full ? 

And in the Book of Ordination, it is askt £ u Are 
you perfwade'd that the Holy Scriptures contain fuffici- 
"ently all dc&rine required of neceflky for eternal 
" falvadon ? through faith in Jefus Chrift ? And are 
" you determined out of the fald Scriptures to inftrud: 
" the people committed to your charge ? and to teach 
xc Nothing fas required of necetfity to eternal falvati- 
" on ) but .that which you (hall be perftvaded may be 
iC concluded and proved by the Scripture ? J Is not this 
plain ? 

P, Why then do you call the thirty nine Articles the 



Articles of your Religion ? And what is their ufe ? And 
why are all required to fubfcribe them ? 

R. i . Their Ufe is to fignifie how the Conjunct Pa- 
flors who ufe them do mderftand the Holy Scriptures 
mthofe joints : And that partly for the fatisfaftion of 
oil forreign Churches , who may hear us accufed of He- 
refie or Error-, and partly to be a hedge to the Doctrine 
of young Preachers, to ^<?f them from vending miftakes 
in the Churches, and alfo to try the foundnefs of their 

2. The Confeflions, and Articles, and Catechifms are 
our Religion, as the Writings of Perron, Bellarmine, 
Suarez,, &c, or many of thefe agreeing, are the Roman 
Religion : They are not the Divine Revelation and Rale 
of faith and practice to us : But they are the exprefften 
of our oven conceptions of the fenfe of feveral chief 
matters in that Rule or Revelation. So that they 
are the Exprejfton of our faith or Religion taken f abje- 
ct™ tly (for alts and habits ) and not our objetlive Rule 
it felf Our Sermons and Prayers are our Religion in 
this fenfe : that is, The Exprejfton of our own Religions 
Conceptions : And fo are your Sermons and your Wri- 
tings alfo to you. But if this were our Rule of Faith 
and Life, and fo our Divine Objetlive Religion , then 
we fhould be of as many Religions , as we are feveral 
per fens : For every one haeh his feveral Exprejfuns : 
And every new Sermon, or Book, or Prayer, would be 
a new part of Religion. And fo with you alfo. So 
that this doubt is pall: alt doubt : Our Confefiions are 
but the exprejfions of our perfonal belief, and not our 
Rule of Faith, 

III. And as to your third pretence f that we have 
other Articles as oppofite to Popery ) I anfwer, Our 
Religwn as a Rule of Fait \i and Worjhipis one thing: 
And our Rejecting all Corruptions and Additions is ano* 


ther. E.g. My Religion is, that our God is only the true 
God. If now I fay aifo, that Hercules is not God, and 
Batch pis is not God, and Venus, Mars, Mercury } Pal- 
las, Neptune, Pluto, Ceres, &c. are not Gods-, is this 
a new Religion, or an addition to the former ? If the 
Baptifmal Covenant be the Ejfentials of my Religion, 
and the Creed, Lords Prayer and Decalogue the Expli- 
cation of it ^ and if the Scripture be my Entire Reli- 
gion, and if the Papifts will come and add a multitude 
of new Articles and Corruptions, my rejecting of thofe 
additions , is no more an alteration of my Religion, 
than thefweepingofmy houfe, or the wafhing of my 
hands is an alteration of them. So that notwithstand- 
ing all that you have faid, my Religion is nothing but the 
Law of Nature and Scripture , and my rejecting of 
Popery, is no otherwife my Religion, than my freedom 
from the Leprofie, &c. is my humanity. 

P. Obferve, I pray you, that It is no part of your 
Religion to be againft Popery. 

R. Obferve I pray you, that Popery is againfi my 
Religion , that is, againft much of the Chriftian Reli- 
gion j and therefore my Religion is againft Popery. 
But I will not quarrell with you about words ; When 
God hath Revealed to us his Will, and the Papifts add 
their corrupting inventions, Gods Revealed Will is my 
Religion : your Corrupting additions are contrary to 
it : Call my rejecting fuch (Corruptions and additions, 
by the name o&my Religion Redu&ively ( as Nihil is 
ohjeElum Intellettus, & Malum Voluntatis ; and as non- 
agere is part of obedience ) ., or Call it no part of my 
Religion in the primary notion, but a Rejecting of its 
contraries • fo we underftand each other I care not. 

The truth is, the Re jetting offome of your errors, 
directly contradicting the Scripture it felf, may be cal- 
led part of our Religion, as the Negation of the Con- 


trary is included in the fenfe of an Affirmative ; But 
your remoter additions, are contrary to our Religion, 
but not fo dire&ly. For inftance.* when the Scripture 
faith, There is bread after Consecration , and you fay 
There is no bread : My Religion containeth the AfTerti- 
on, that There is bread: Andfo includeth a contradicti- 
on to your Negative, that faith |" There is none~\* 
Now to fay, that It is none of my Religion to deny your 
Negative , who fay There is no bread, would import that 
It is none of my Religion which affirmeth that there is 
bread. Contradictions cannot both be true : Properly 
that word that faith There is bread is my Religion : But 
this word contradi&eth you that fay There is none. 

But in another inftance - y my Religion faith, that The 
Righteous fliall go into life everlafting, and the reft to 
everlafting punifhment • and tells us of a Heaven and 
Hell only hereafter : And you tell us of Limbus Pa- 
trum& Infant urn, and of Purgatory : The Scripture en- 
ablethus by confequence to confute this: but if it did 
not, it were enough for me to fay, It is none of my 
Religion, becaufe not Revealed by God in Nature or 
Scripture ; And as it is your Addition, fo to deny it, is 
not dire lily and properly my Religion it felf, but the 
Defence and Vfe of my Religion. God tells us in Scri- 
pture, that He created Heaven and Earth. If one 
fhouid afTert as from God, that God created ten thou- 
fand Heavens and ten theufand Earths, this is a faith of 
his own invention or addition, and it is enough for me to 
fay, / have no fitch faith ^ beciufe God revealeth no 
fuch thing. So tha<: ftill ihe Scripture is the Proteftants 
Religion as your Pu lydor Virgil truly defenbeth them, 
and Oihers confefs. 

P. All this is meer dek-fion : For It is not the 
words, but the fenfe that is your Religion ; as you will 
confefs. And if your Articles or Coufelllons contain 

a falfi 


a falfe fenfe, or your Books or Sermons fhew that you 
falfly ex found the Scripture , your Religion is then 

A'. Such Confufion may cheat a heedlefs hearer : But 
any one that will take heed , may quickly perceive, 
that you here fraudulently play with the ambiguity of 
the word [_ Religion '] and quite turn to another que- 
ftion; For you now ffeak^ of fubje£iive Religion, that 
is, of the Acls and habits of the ferfon : whereas we 
are difputing only of objective Religion, which is Gods 
Revelation and our Rule. If I under fiand any Texts of 
Scripture amifs , my faith is fo far defective in my 
felf. But Cods Word j which is my Rule i is never the 
more imperfect. 

I pray you confidcr how juftly you have fpoken. 
i. Is a mans ^Ach ef faith, Gods Word ex Revelation $ 
2. What need you diipute of the Prote ft ants Religion , 
if we have as many Religions as ferfons f For it is as 
certain that we have as many degrees of our under- 
flandwg many Texts of Scripture ? 3 . Would not this 
prove alfo as many Religions as ferfons among your 
felvcs ? Is it not mod certain that no two Papifts in the 
world, have juft the fame fenfe or conceptions of the 
Scriptures and Councils in each f articular. The Law 
of God is my only Religion, objectively, as now difputed 
of : If I mi flake any ejfential part of it, fo as to deny 
it, I am f erf on all) a Heretickj if I miftake any Inte- 
gral part, I fo far err from the Rule of my Religion or 
faith. But I fti 11 profefe, that I take Gods Word or 
Law only for my fure unchangeable Rule or objective 
Religion, and I am daily learning to underftand it bet- 
t;r, and as foon as I fee my error I will reform it, 
:ni blame my felf and not my Rule. And I think 
50 j will fay the (am: of your Rule ani of your fer fa- 
tal errors. 

C P. This 

r is ; 

P. This fl all not ferve your turn : For every Law 
muft have its promulgation : And if it be not manifc- 
fied to you that Scripture is Gods Law, and fufficient, it 
cannot be your Rule : I ask you therefore, 

Qu. i. Is it the Scripture in the Original, or in the 
Tranflatiovs, which you fay is your Religion , Law or 
Rule t 

R. I told you our Divine Rule confifteth of Words 
and Meaning, It is only the Originals which are our 
Rule or Religion as to the very words ; that is, Only 
the Original words, were of that Divine Infpiration. 
But every 'Translation is fo iar Coas Word, in fenfe , as 
it 'exprefieth truly 'he fenfe of the original words, 

P. Qu. 2. I pray you what thenis^the Religion of 
all the unlearned Proteftants, who know not a word of 
the Originals ? They may fee now that you have ftript 
them oi all Divine Religion. 

R. Their Religion is the fame objectively with that 
of the moft learned, as deliverer from God » but it is 
'not equally learned and underftood by them • Cods Word 
in the Original Tongues is given them as the Rule of 
Faith and Worflrif ; zndTeachcrs are appointed to help 
them to underftand it. When thefe Teachers have 
Translated it to them, they have the fan: e fenfe, though 
not the fmc words, for their Religion. And to know 
the Words is not fo necefiary to falvation, as to kndw the 
fenfe for fentence ) though by other words: For the 
words are but means to know the Senfe ; and the fenfe 
but & means to know the Things, (viz.. God, Chrift, 
Grace, Glory, $c. ) And as they have the fame 
God, ftrift, Spirit y Grace, Glory, cj-c. to be the real ob- 
jells of their Religion, fo have they the fame 2>J- 
DoBrinc and Law in fenfe which is in the Ori- 

P. Q. -<» And Jprav you, How fliall the unlearned 



be Cure that the Tranflations are true as to the fence } 
when you have no Divine Infallible Translators ? 

R. I alfo ask you. i. How was all the Greek Church 
for many hundred years fure of the foundnefs of the 
Tranilation called the Septuagint ? or that of Aquila, 
Theodot.Symmacbtu, &c. when it is certain that in ma- 
ny things they were all unfound ? 

2. How was the Latine Church fare of the foundnefs 
of their Tr an flat ion before flier on, e amended it ? And 
how have you been fure fnce then, when Pope Sixtm^ 
and Pope Clement have made fo many hundred alterati- 
ons or differences ? Had you then Infallible Translators ? 
And why then do your Tranflators ( as dMontanus and 
others J flill differ from that Vulgar Latine ? 

3. And how do all your unlearned perfons know 
that you give them not only the true fence of the Scri- 
pt nre s } but of all your Councils or Traditions ? 

But I will anfwer you directly. We ftill diftin- 
guilli the Effentials of our Religion^ irom the Integrals 
and Accidentals. 1. The unlearned may be certain 
that the EJfentials are truly delivered them in fe?:ce : 
Becaufe they have ihem not only in the Scripture, but by 
Vntverfal certain Tradition jn the cenflvant VfeofCkri- 
Jfian Baptifm, and in [he ufc of the Crecd^ Lords Prayer 
and Decalogue in all ihe Church-afTemblies : And they 
may eafily know that mens tempers, Countrcys, Lite- 
rcfts, opinions in other points, and fidings are fo vari- 
ous, that it is not a thing poilible without a miracle, 
that all thefe fhould confpire both in ifalfe Tranjiation, 
and Vnivcrfal ajfertion and Tradition of all thefe Ejfcn- 
tials. For the effects muff be contrary to a torrent of 
Caufes : The Papifts, Proteftants,Arian$, Greeks, $ocf- 
nians, Lutherans, Calvinifts, Anabaptifts, Separatifts, 
&c. have.fo much animofity againft each other, that un- 
doubtedly if any party of them did falfifie Scripture even 

Qz in 


in the Effentials which arc eafily difcerned, multi.udes 
would quickly detcd it and contradict them. And this 
the unlearned may furely and eafily difcern. 

But as for all other Ufs neceffary texts of Scripture, 
neither you nor we , learned or unlearned, are certain 
that they are perfeilly tranflated, nor are they by any 
one perfectly under flood, nor are they fure ( by reafon 
of the various readings ) which ccpie of the original is 
abfolutely faultless. 

2. But fuppofe that an unlearned weak Believer were 
not abfolutely certain fas he may be) that the very ef- 
fentialsof Chriftianity are truly opened to him, he may 
yet grow up to better underftanding, and he may be fa- 
yed with [owe doubt ings of Chriftianity it ft If, fo be it 
his Faith be more prevalent than thofe doubting?, upon 
his Heart and Life. 

P. Is it a fafe Religion which you your felf defcribe ? 
When no man can be fure that he rightly underflandeth 
all the Scriptures? and when your believer is uncertain, 
even of Chriftianity it felf ? Let D. Judge whether 
this be a fure Religion. 

R. The word of God is abfolutely certain in it felf* 
but that fo much uncertainty may be'in believers, 1 will 
make you to your fhame confefs your felf, and recant 
thefe inlinuations. 

^. i. Dare ycu fay that all your Church, or any one 
man, even the Pope hi??? felf, doth underftaud all the Scri- 
pture ? or can perfectly and infallibly tranflate each 
word? You dare net fay ir. Elfe why did he never 
once pretend to give us either an unerring Commentary 
or Tranflation ? And why have you fuch great divtrfity 
cf both ? 

^.2. How much lefs dare ycu fay that any of you 
perfectly imderftand all the Councils, which are the reft 
of your Religion ? No nor that you have certainty 



which are the true Copies of them all ? elfe why do 
Caranz,a, Crab, Surius, Binniiu, Nicolinm, &c give 
give us fuch various Copies ? And yet you confefs the 
Scriptures to be Gods word, and with the Councils to 
contain your Religion. 

^^3. If God have promifed falvation, to all that 
truly nold and pra&ife the Effentials (the Baptifmal 
Covenant) doth the difficulty of other points fin Gene- 
alogie, Chronologie, Hiftory, by-matters ) either make 
our falvation ever the lefs certain, or any way impeach 
the word of God ? What difgrace is it to a man that 
befides Head and Hearty he hath fingers, and toes, and 
nails and hair ? No more is it to the Scripture, that as 
our entire Religion, it containeih even Integrals and 

Q^ 4. And as to a Doubting Believer •, I a^k, Dare 
you iay that all thofe were 
infidels or in a flate of dam- s - e the Ro PV- n i atA - where 

• r 1 r , . this is conkftj C\ . 1. q.u 

nation, who laid, Lord in- la g.<^ 
creafe our faith f or Lord we 

believe • help our unbelief? or to whom Chrift faid, 
Why are ye afraid O ye of little faith ? or that faid, 
Luk. 24. We trufled that this had been he that foottld 
have delivered Ifrael ? Or if a man fhould doubt even 
of the Life to come, and yethrs faith be fo much more 
powerful than his doubts, as that he refolveth to prefer 
his hopes of Heaven before all this world y and to feek it 
on the mo ft fclf-denying terms, even to the laying down 
of life it felf, are you fure that this manfiall be damned I 
But this is the Courfe of pievifh wranglers. To main- 
tain their own opinions and put a face of certainty on 
their own conclufions, they ftick not to damn almoft all 
the world. For it will be no lei^ if all doubting be* 
litvers rauft be damned, 

C 3 5. It 


5. It is a grcfs delufion to pretend that there is 3 

necefiity, that AH Gods In- 
St.- Dr. . f;V/..v« ^/m/ f.-iu, l".t. fallible word, muft- needs be 

taught us by as Infallible In- 
fpired Prophets or other perfons, as thofe that firft de- 
livered it f Tr an fat ion is but the firft part of expo fit i- 
on, And muft we have none but Infallible or Prophet i- 
caL Expo fit or s f 

6. Is it All the Scriptures, or but jW/f part 1 , that your 
Pope or Councils can Infallibly both tranilate and ex- 
pound ? If but forte, we need not their Infallibility or 
Jnfpiration, for the mo ft plain and necejfary parts : It is 
andean be done without them. If it be All, how im- 
pious and cruel are they that would never do it to this 
day ? 

7. And why life' all your Expositors the common helps 
of Grammars, Lexicons,- Teachers, long fludies, and 
yet differ dc fide (even of the fenfe of many a text 
cf Scripture ) when all is done, if your Pope have the 
gift of Infallible Tranflating and expounding all ? 

P. Remember that your felves derive your Effentials 
from Tradition . 

R. Yes, and our Integrals to : What objective pre- 
fence to thefenfes, (eyes and earsj of thofe that heard 
Chriftand his Apoftles, and law their mir cles was to 
the fy ft Converts in thefe times, tt.u partly Tradition 

is to as , or the neccfiary 

He tint would know what ftrefs medium. The Words COUli 
we hy on Traditiot^as the Me- i • i 

diuTi may ^ it fully in m/ ft«* not come down to US, Wltll- 
),7. oj < ■;■„>:. k ,. ,-. And Dr. ouc f^Hie to deliver them. 

Ji,-Ja-:n k more tor us than tor * -, r i i „ / , , n- / • 

fie iVpi(t-, c ./, . 5 . We have the i?;i>/V by Trafc- 

#>#,, and we have praiiical 
Tradition of Baptijm and ihe (freed by if /Wf, and tha: 
in many languages; where we are furewehave all the 
necejfary fence. But do vou resnrmber that this is 

Vniverfal Tradition, and not meer Roman Tradition \ 
fuch as is certain by moral Evidence, even the confent of 
all that are yet of crofs opinions and Inter e ft s> (as to 
matter of faft ) • Hiftoncal Evidence ^ and not the 
pretended certainty of a Pope and his favourites, pha- 
natically claiming a fpirit of Infallibility. 

But I am not now difpuring with you, I am only 
telling you that the Proteftant Religion is nothing but 
Chrifttanity and the Scriptures, And all our Confef 
/ions are our Religion ( befides Confent ) but as our 
Sermons and Trcatifcs are, which vary as they are va- 
rious exprefiions of mens various fubje&ive faith ■, while 
Cods word varyeth not. 

P. If the Bible be your Religion, then the Ceremo- 
nial Law of Mofes is your Religion ; For that is part 
of the Bible. 

R. Youfludy what to fay againft another, and never 
think how it concerneth your (elves, i. Is not the Bi- 
ble at leaft Part of your Religion ? You dare not deny 
it. And is the Ceremonial Law of Mofes therefore 
your Religion f 

2. I told you that as a perfetl man hath hair and 
nails, which are but Accidents, fo the Bible hath more 
than fa Integrals of our Religion. 

3 . The Ceremonies of Mofes in that fenfe as now they 
are delivered to us in the Bible, are parts or appurte- 
nances of our Religion : That is, the hiftorical narra- 
tive of thofe Abrogated Laws, which now bind us not 
as Laws, but tell us ( as the Prophefies ) what wat hire 
tofore, and how Chrift was fore-typified, and what in- 
timations of Gods will we may gather from thehiitory. 
And the abrogated Laws are no othcrwife delivered to 
us, and fo we mult ufe them. , 

P. If the ten Commandments be your Religion, 
you muft keep the Jewifh feventh day Sabbath: 

C 4 fo 

I 2 4) 
jp that neither there can you fix, 

R. The fame anfwer will ferve. i. The ten Com- 
mandments are no other wife part of mr Religion trun 
they are of yours. 2. They are a Law to m y as deli- 
vered and expounded by fr ri ft-> an ^ m Nature : and the 
feventh day is an abrogated part of Afofes Law. 

P. If the faed be your Religion, you muft take the 
Ariicle of Chrifts defcent into Hell to be necefiary to 

R. i. Is the freed no part of your Religion ? As you 
anfwer, fo may we. 2. I did not tell you that the 
Creed had no more than the EJfentials. I told you that 
all iIk EJfence of Chriftianity is in the Bapifmal Cove- 
nant ; And he thar underftandeth fW, underftandeth it 
all. And that the Creed, the Lords Prayer , and the 
Christian Decalogue are the expofition of ir. But the 
Expofition may have fomewbat more than the Ejfenti- 
als. 3. The freed was not written firft in Englifh, 
nor Latine ; And Chrifts defcent to Hades is more 
needful to be believed, than his defcent to HeH, as the 
Word is commonly taken in Englifti. 

But, to conclude, remember, 1. 1 hat I profefs here 
to own and plead for no otber Religion (as we ex- 
plained the word ) but Gods Law of Nature and 
Scripture. 2. That I profefs to perfwade D. to no 
other : And you cannot make me a Religion againft 
.my will. 



What is the fapifis Religion. 

F. T Have plainly told you what my own, and the 
X Prote&ints Religion is, viz. [Nothing but Qmi- 
fiianity ; contained Integrally in the holy Scriptures • 
And the ElTentials being the Baptifmal Covenant, ex- 
plained in the (reed. Lords prayer and Chriftian Deca- 
logue^ are delivered to m both in the Jaid Scriptures, 
and by diftind Tradition • which alfo hath brought 
down to tu the Scripture it felf : Not a Tradition de- 
pending on the pretended Authority of the Roman Pope 
or party, or on any other that ft all pretend the like - 5 But 
that Hiftorical Evidence ^/matter of fad:, which is fure- 
Iier given us by all forts of Chriftians, taking in tht 
(one or d of many Heretickjy Infidels and Enemies • 
which evidence dependeth n*t on the credit of fuperna- 
tural Revelation, but on the natural credibility yea and 
certainty of fuch univerfal Circumftantiated Concordant 
teftimony y and is necejfarily antecedent to the Belief of 
fupernatural Revelations in the particulars, as fight and 
hearing were in the auditors of Qorifi and the Apo files -, 
feeing thefe two Atts of Knowledge^ [^Whatever God 
faith is True - 5 and This God faith ~\ mufi necejfarily go 
before our Belief or Truft that £This is True, becaufe 
God faith it.] And fo we run not in a circle ', and need 
not a fupernatural faith , for the founding of our firfi 
fupernatural faith ; that is y Afirfi before the firfi. ] 

Without fraud or obfeurity this is our faith and Re- 

Now do you as honeftly and plainly tell me What is 
Tours, which D. muft be perfwaded to : For I confefs 


^20 J 

that I take it to be an unintelligible thing, and defpair 
that ever you give any man a certain notice, what it is, 
which may be truly called the Religion of your Roman- 

P. I (rail make you underfhnd it if you are willing: 
But i. Note that [Religion'} being a larger word than 
[faith ~] includeth alfo \Prallice~\ or [Manner s\ 
we muft give you a diftina account of each : For • they 
have not the fameCaufes: Our Faith is -Divine-, But 
our Manners or Practice muft follow the Lavas of the 
Churchy as well as the Immediate Laws of God : Thefe 
muft not be confounded. 

R. Man hath three faculties, Intellective, Volitive and 
Vitally- Executive, or Active : Our Religion fubj etlive- 
ly muft be in all, itisu The Sanctity of all, by Holy Ltfe y 
Light and Love : And therefore the Rule which is our 
objeSiive Religion doth extend to all, ( to bitelletl. Will 
and Practice ), And furely for All, there is a Rttle 
diretlly Divine, given by Infpiration of the Holy Ghofi 
or Chrifts own words, and fubordinate Rules by Qorifis 
Minifters,w\\\c\\*tt directly Humane ; and no other- 
wife Divine than as God hath in General authorized 
them thereto. Even as the Soveraign hath the only 
Vmvcrfal Lcgiflative fower, and Magiflrates by Him 
are authorized to fubordinate mandates and acts of Go- 
vernment. 'And fo we have a Divine Faith and Reve- 
lation, and a fubordinate Humane faith and Minifterial 
Revelation or Preaching : We have Divine Pcrfwafi- 
ens, and fibordmate Perfwafwns of men : We have 
Divine Laws, yea and executions •, and we have Hu- 
mane fubordinate Laws and executions. If you refolve 
to cati the Humane, Divine fo far as they are indeed 
Authorizedby God, I will not quarrel about words : 
But remember, z . That fo you muft do alio on the fame 
reafons, by the Laws of Kings and the Commands of 


( 2 7 J 
Parents, who are as mnch authorized by God to their 
proper Government. 2. And 1 hope you mean not to 
Confound thefe Humane Laws, with Gods own Vni~ 
ver/al Laws , nor humane faith with Divine faith* 
And be it known to you, It is the Divine Revelations 
and Laws as di flinch from the Humane , which we are 
now calling our Religion, and difputing of - though 
this Religion teach us to obey Parents , Paftors and 
Princes, and that obedience may be confequentially 
and redudively called Religions if you pleafe. But if 
really your Religion be noi Divine, but Humane, let us 
know ir f For by the word \_ Religion ~\ we eflentially 
mean that which is [_ Divine. ] 

P. Men were the fpeakers and writers of the Scri- 
ptures, and fo far they are humane, as well as the De- 
crees of the prefent Church. 

R. The Decalogue waswittenby God, and delivered 
by the Miniftry of Angels : Chrift was owned by a Voice 
from Heaven. And himfelf fpake and did moft re- 
cited by the four Evangelifts : And the Prophets and 
Apoftles fpake by the immediate Infallible Infpiration 
of the Holy Ghoft : So that the Holy Ghoft is the 
Author of the Scriptures. Eut the prefent Paftors of 
the Church inftead of that Immediate Revelation from 
•God by the Spirits Infpiration , have but the ordinary 
help of the Spirit, to underftand thofe fame Revelati- 
ons , and that proportioned to the meafure of their 
diligence , natural farts and helps of Art , as 
the knowledge of Theologie is attained by other 
Students ^ who are none of them perfed: or free from 

P. I will tell you what our Religion is, It is Cods 
Word concerning things to be Believed and Done deli- 
vered partly in the Canonical Scriptures, And partly by 


OralTraJition, and received by the Church, and by it 

delivered to us. The Trent, 

&. Was it from the Church that Catech. Prefac. q. 11. faith, 

the firft Church received it ? Or ~ j ,1 • • 

was it not the fame Divine Reli- OmntS doCtriTlA ratio, qua 

gion which the firft Church (whe- pdellbus tradenda fit , Wr£<? 

thcr Council or Pradicers ) re- •* i-a 

reived without the TraJiti™ of Vei contmeiur, quod in Sen- 

Council ior Praters? If fc, this mm am, Traditionefq- diftri- 

cannot be e(fcntial to Religion. * ' „ rr , * V' r J r 

If the Apoftles words were to be vutum ejt, 1 be Rcajon OJ 

believed, their proved Writings Vfry doctrine which is to 

are to be believed. And tneir . / . . , . 

Writings were proved their, be- Ve delivered to the faith- 

by each Church and oerfon that OJ God , VPtfjCtf IS dlftribu- 
%™^ E ^ khom:n ;° n: ted into the Scripture and 


Vide Concil. Senonenf. in Bin. Deer. 5. p. 671. & 
Concil. Tridentini SefT. 4. p. 802. — Pcrfpicienfcjue 
banc Veritatem & difciplinam contineri in libris fa- 
cris, & fine fcripto Traditionibiu, qua ex ipfius Chrifti 
ore ab jipoftolis accept*, & ab ipjis Apoftolis Spiritu 
fanlbo dill ante quafi per manus tradita, ad nos ufque 
pcrvenerunt , orthodoxorum patrum fententiam fequu- 
ta, omnes libros tarn Vcteris quam Novi Tefiame?iti,nec 
nonTraditiunes if fas, tumadfidem, turn ad mores per- 
tinentes, tanquam vel ore tcnus a Chrifto, vel a Spiritu 
fancio diclatas, cjr continua fnccejfione in EcclejiaCa- 
tholica confervatas, pari putatis ajjcchi & rcverentia 
fufcipit ac vencratur. 

Edlarmin. de Ferbo Dci y lib. 4. c. 2, 3. fheweth the 
divers forts of unwritten Traditions which are part of 
Gods Word : fome de fide, as the perpetual Virginity 
of Mary , that there are but four Gofpcls y &c. and 
Tome of Manners -, as Croifmg, Fafi-dayes, cj-c. fiafter, 
lVbitfontide y and other Feftivals. 



Veron de Reg. fid. cap, 2. faith, [ u The total and 
u only Rule of the Catholick faith, to which all are 
" obliged under pain of Herefie and Excommunication, 
u is Divine Revelation delivered to the Prophets And 
" Apoflles, propofed by the Catholick Church- in her 
a General Councils , or by her Univerfal pra&ice, to 
u be believed as an Article of Catholick faith. ~] [_ "All 
" that is of this nature is an Article or doctrine of 
" faith. And no other dodrine -can be of faith , if 
" cither the firft Condition fail, viz. Divine Revelati~ 
"on, or the fccond, which is a Propofal by thellni- 
"verfal Church. ] p. 5. No doctrine grounded on 
" Scripture diver fly interpreted, either by the antient' 
n Fathers or our Modern Doctors, is an Anicle cf faith. 
"For fucha do&rine, though it may be revealed, yet 
" the revelation is not afcertained to us, nor propofed 

u by the Church ; 

u Nor any Propofition which S o that if the Doftors win but 
" can be proved only by con- diff " cr in their Expofitions, the 

cc r j c e> - Scripture is no more the fure 

fequence drawn from Sen- Wor \j ot ' Godi or to be believed 
u pture , though the con- b y catholick faith. 
u fequences were certain and 
<c evident, and deduced from two proportions of Scri- 

u pture Yet thefe doctrines are Certain, when 

" the premifes are fo. Gratians decrees — the 

Ci Papal decrees contained in the body of the Canon 
" Law , none of them do conftitute an Article of 

" faith Nor that which is defined in Provin- 

<c cial Councils, though the P. peprefide in perfon 

" for the fecond condition is alwayes wanting in this 

<c cafe, and very often the firft- p. 11. I did not 

" fay that fuch definitions 

" were not of faith 2^ii?°* ^ m a Genor21 

u but they are not of Catho- 

*! licKfath y or which all as Catholicks are bound 

" to hold- as of faith , and the contrary to which is 
" heretical , and removeth from the bofome of the 

a Church. p. 1 2, 13. The 

Mark then, that it may be de fi.le cC Pratlice even of the Vni" 

dwina, though not oftachclick tt * C^i r>L... ^L i* ~~ /•„/!:• 
n -cejjhy without the pro,ofal of njCr J al Church IS no fuffiCl- 

Council or univerfal prattLe. Cc ent ground for an Atti- 

"cle of Catholick faith \ 
cc by reafon the objed: of faith is Truth : and 
a oft times the Church proceeds in matter of pratlicc^ 
tc upon probable Opinions , and this probability is fuffi- 
<c cient to juftifie the praclke, which the Church on 
" juft caufe may change : As e.g. as Vafyucz. teach- 
* eth, the Church did antiently pray in the Mafs for 
cc Infidels alive, and Catechumens dead, and the Sacri- 
u fice of the Mafs was offered for them, and yet he 

« ; rather inclineth to the contrary , that the vSa- 

ic crifice of the Mafs ought not to be offered, but for the 
cc faithful living and dead , by which Opinion the 
" Church feemeth guided at prefent. But Vafquez. 
<c anfwers, that the Church following a probable opi- 
u nion did pradife that which fhe.did not declare to 

<c be of faith. p. 15. So General Councils 

i( when they mention any thing in this manner ( by way 
£C of fimple afTerrion ) and do not properly define ; 
" For as Be liar wine affirms, it is nccefTary that Gene- 
" ral Councils properly define the thing in queftion, as 
cc a Decree which ought to be held as of Catholic^ 
Ci faith. Hence Be lUr mine adds , they are not proper- 
cC ly Hereticltj, who hold the Pope not to be above all 
11 Councils, though he fay the laft Laterane Council 
" under Leo the tenth Sef. 11. exprefly and profeflldly 
" teacheth that the Pope is above all Councils , and 
" rejedsthe contrary D cree of the touncil of Bafil: 
11 becaufe it is doubtful \v\\q htr ihx Later an e Council 
•"defined that do&rine properly as aDecreeto be be- 

a leived 

! " lievedwith Catholic^ faith. The fame Bellarrm. (de 
u ConciL I. i.e. 19.) alfo requireth that the definition 
"btnxiAeConciliarly: Pope Martin the fifth faid, he 
ic only confirmed thofe Decrees of faith which were 
" made in the Council of Conftanee , Conciliariter : 
" that is, after the manner of other Councils, the que- 
u ftion being firft diligently examined : But its clear 
u ( faith he) that this Decree, that a General Council 
u hath immediate authority from Chrift , which all, 
"even the Pope, are bound to obey, was made without 

"any examining p. 17. The object defined muft 

" be truly and property an object of faith ^ and a 
<c Decree ought to be on a thing univerfaliy propofed 

Cc to the whole Church Vafquez. holds t It is 

" noc at all erroneous to affirm that a General Coun- 
cC cil may err in Precepts , and in particular Judge- 

<c ments ^and (p. 19. ) in framing Laws not 

cc neceflary to falvation ; or making fuperfiuous Laws — 
u Without all doubt a General Council may err in a 
" queftion of fad : ( which depends on teftimony and 
cc information of men : ) So the fixth General Council 
" condemned Honorms of Herefie by fa[fe Information, 

<c and mifund rftanding his Epiftles. p.20. The 

" Pope ( faith Suarez. ) to a particular action belonging 
" to humane Prudence , hath no infallible affiftance of 

u the Holy Ghoft As that fuch or fuch an excom- 

" munication is valid, or that fuch or fuch a Kingdom 
<c is difpofable by the Pope for fuch and fuch caufes. ] 
So far Verorty who is raoft favourable to you , in nar- 
rowing our faich. 

R. Thus far you have refolvedme i but I muft crave 
fomewhat more. Q^. 1. Are there no EfTential Con- 
ftituiive parts of your -Religion , more necefTary than 
the Integrals and Accidentals f Have you no descripti- 
on for it, but that It is Divine Revelation propofed by 



the Church t The Dofirine of Sacrificing was a Divine 
Revelation to Adam, and the difference of clean arid un- 
clean Beafts to Noah , and the Jewifh Law was Gods 
Revelation to Mofes and them ; And yet I fuppofe 
Chriftianity is fomewhat different from all thefe. Is 
not Chriftianity your Religion ? Hath Chriftianity no 
Conftitvtive fpecial EjfenceJdUt only the Genus of Divine 
Revelation which is common to that with all other 
Divine Revelations ? And what if you add [" to a 
Prophet orApoftW} ? Was Agabus Prophefie of Paul, 
or Pauls of the event of the ihipwrack, &c. effential 
to Chriftianity l Hath Chriftianity no Ejfence r Or is 
all Divine Revelation ejfential to it ? 

P. You take advantage of the difagreement of our 

Dodors. You know that 

r johtf. Kcv. Kep.r. 19. of the ex- fome few acknowledg diftinfi 

^?7/J™ '*$&% fundamentals, and fome deny 

xckat are the points necefary to the diftindionin your fenfe : 

be believed explicitly neceditate a^J-», n. ~C ~ 1* ., »U ^ 
meiii : Some, and dfe the more And llioft of US lay, that 110 

antient hcu, that the exMiei* man can enumerate the 

belief of God. of the whole Trini- 1 • rr 11 1 

tyjft'bijtlb* Pafio*, Kcfurre. things neceflary to all , but 

ctiov, &c. are necejfary needfitate that it dcpClldeth UP0I1 mens 
medii : Others among' ihereeer- . • • 1 
tiers, that no more than the belief VariOUS Capacities, educati- 
on Ptii', and that he is the ons anC l means of kllOWinP. 
nvrard'.r of cur work*, is abf - \ . r . V 
johmly necefary rrith that nc- Alld in ium, that 110 more IS 
cvjjir^tebeexvlHtelylzluve.'. necc flary [Q ^\[ [0 fc e ex . 

plicitly believed , but that 
Gods Revelations are true •, and that All are Gods Re- 
velations which the Church propofeth as juch. 

You may take our judgement much from him that 
cometh neareft to you, whom I have heard you much 
praife, as moft moderate and judicious, w'*,. DxMJdul- 
den AnaL fid, L i.c, 5. Lett. 2. p, 53. [ a Divines 
tc difputing of the receiiuyof points to be believed, do 
4£ commonly tend tbis way, to denote the Articles of 

" thing 


u things revealed , the explicite and exprefs belief 
"whereof, is (as they opine) altogether necefTary t6 
u all Chriftians. The refolution oi which queftion is 
" among them fo doubtful and uncertain , as that they 
<c are in this ( as ft> they are in all things elfe ) di- 
"ftra&ed and divided into various Opinions: which 
<c they that care for them, may feek : To me they are 
" as Nothing, while the Authors of them profefs, that 
c< they have nothing of Certainty, Yea> to one that 
" meditateth the matter it felf, laying by all preoccu- 
u pation, it is moft clearly manifeft, that the Refolutiori 
u of this queflion is not only unprofitable, that I fay not 
u pernicious, (as it is handled by Divines^) • but alfo vairi 
cc and importible. It is unprofitable, becaufe no good ac- 
<c crueth by it to fouls. Q$* It is pernicious, while Divines 
"for the moft part afTert, that only One or Two Arti- 
a cles, yea, ( as fome fay ) no fmgular Article at all, is 
"necefTary to be believed of all by an explicite faith: 
" For hence ( however the truth of the matter be ) 
" the colder Chriftians taking occafion, do little care 
<c to obtain that degree of Knowledge in the Myfteries 
" of faith, which they might commodioufly and eafily 
" attain. It is Jmpoffible , feeing it is Manifeft, that no 
" particular Rule or Points to. be believed, or Number 
" of Articles can in this Matter be given or afligned, 
cc which (hall be wholly common and necefTary to all 
" Chriftians: For this dependeth on every individual 
" mans natural capacity, means of inftru&ion, and ail 
cc the other circumftances of each mans life and difpo- 
" fition, which are to each man fo fpecial, that we can 
<c determine of nothing at all that is common to all. 

cc But I handle the Neceflity of points to be Believed 
cc in a far other fenfe : For the Articles of the Chrifti- 
<c an faith, which I now call necefTary, I do not at all' 
" underftand to be f»ch as all and every one muft di- 

D << ftinftly 

<c ftin&ly know, or hold by explicite allent ; But I 
u mean only fuch, the belief of which is accounted 
u univerfally by the whole Caiholick Church, fo fub- 
" ftantial and efTential, as that he that will defervedly 
cc be efteemed, and truly be a member of it, mult needs 
, ,. "adhere to them all at leaft 

He doth better interpret the di- L , T .. . . • T i n, 

ftinftion of Expiidte and impii- " Implicitely and Indirectly I 

cite on another occafion, in ano- " t hat is, by believing what- 

" foever the holy and Univer- 
u fal Church doth Catholickly believe and teach as a 
u Revealed Doctrine and Article of divine faiih. And 
li therefore he is for that caufe to be removed from 
<c its Communion and Society, who (hall pertinaciouily 
" and obflinately deoy the leaft $f them, much more 
" if he maintain the contrary, while he kjmvetb and 
"fecth thai it isihe Univerfal fentenceof that Church, 
" that we muft adhere to ihar as an Article of faith. And 
" in this fenfe I will henceforth ufe the word Necejjity. 

R. This might have been faid in fewer and plainer 
words, vfe. That your Divines herein do commonly 
err, and that pernicioufly, and yet that indeed he is of 
the fame mind . y*&. that It is impofiible to name the 
Articles necefTary to be believed explicitely of all, bc- 
caufe each mans divers capacity, means and circum- 
flances diverlifie them to each : But thai only this one 
thing is explicitely to be believed, [That whatsoever 
the Holy and Univerfal Church doth Catholickly be- 
lieve and teach as a Revealed Doftrine and Article of 
faith, is true.3 And therefore that no man muft per- 
rinaciouily deny any thing which he knoweth the 
Church fo holdetb. So that nothing is neceftarily 
to be believed actually and indeed, but Gods and the 
Churches Vtratky, 

P. Another of ours that cometh as near ycu as 
rs.,ft, openeth this more fully, Davenfort alias Fr. a 

4( Sanlia 


SanBa Clara, Be. Nat. Crat. p. 1 1 i, &c. £ " As to 
" the Ignorance of thofe things that are of neceftity of 
" Means, or End, there is difference among the Do- 
" dors : For Soto 4. d, 5. ^.5. er /. dfe iV^zr. $■ Crat. 
u c. 12. ^ Vega 1.6. c. 20. fnf.Tr id. hold that now 
" in the Law of Grace there is no more explicite faith 
" required, than in the Law of Nature, Yea, Vega ib. 
" & Gabriel z.d.zi. q.i.ar. 3. £r 3. d. 21. q. 2. think 
" that in the Law of Nature, and in Cafes in the Law of 
u Grace, fome may be faved with only natural know- 
" ledge , and that the habit of faith , is not re- 
" quired. Whom Horantius terms men of great name, 
'('and will not accufe of herefie. I would this great 
"mans modefty were more frequent with modern Do- 
"dors. Yea ; Alvarez, deatix.difp. 56. with others, 
cC feemethto hold, that to juftification there is not at 
"all required the knowledge of a fupernatural objed 
" ( or the fupernatural knowledge of the objed. ) 
" Others hold, That boih to Grace and Glory is re- 
" quired an explicite belief of Chriil. Bunav. 3. 
iC d. 2$ y &c. Others, that ar leaft to falvation is an 
u explicite belief of the Gofpel or of Chrift , though 
"not to Grace or Juftification. And this is common 
cc in the Schools, as Ferera fhews that followeth it : 
" And for this Opinion Scot us is cited — But I think he 
holdeth, that explicite belief of Chrift or the Gofpel, is 
" not of neceility of means as to Grace or Glory, as 
" 4. d. 3. q. 4. What is \ lainer than that now — 
" men may be faved without the explicite belief of 

"Chrift- And I plainly think its Scetu/s and 

" the common opinion, which Pfega followeth, and. 
" her 4. d.i. and Tetigiam \ 
" Thomifts Barnes 2. . Ye;., 

" the Trent Council, feemeth to favour it, Sejf. 6.C.4. 

" — —p. 114. SoCcrdfd^a^ Medina^ Bradwardine. 

D 2 "(& zAnd 

cc £?* Aadfuch ( as have no explicite faith in Chrift ) 
cc are not formally without the Church, This way go 
" Vi&vria in 4. Relctt. 4. tit* Richard dc Villa wed. 3. 
"25. a. S.*.i r &c. 

c<m Well faith Tctigianisz.d. 35. q.i.a.g. that if 
cc there were a fimple old woman to whom fume falfe 
" Opinion were preached by a falfe Prophet ( e.g. that 
c< the fubftance of Bread remaineth with the body of 
" Chrift in the Sacrament ) and fhe believe it : Doth 

<c fhe fin by this? No. — p. 119. Yea, if fhe fo 

"err through piety, thinking that the Church fo be- 

" lieveth, perhaps fhe fhould merit, p. 720. For 

" my part I think that the Vulgar committing themfelves 
" to the inftruftion of the Paftors, trufting of their 
" knowledge and goodnefs, if they be deceived, it will 
cC be taken for invincible ignorance , or at leaft pro- 
<c bable, ( as Herera ) which excufeth from fault!* 

"nefs. Yea, fome Doctors give fo much to the 

u Inftrudion of Paftors , that have the care of the 
" Sheep , that if they fhould teach , that fl$» hie & 
" nunc God would be hated, the rude Parifhioner were 

"bound to believe him : which yet I think falfe 

u p. 123. It feemeth at this day to be the common 
cc judgement of the Schools and Divines, that the Laity 
u erring with their Do&ors or Paflors are altogether 
u excufed from all fault • {r> Yea, oft times fo mate- 
rnally erring do merit for the aft of Chriftian obedi- 
"ence which they owe their Paftors : as you may fee 
"in Talent. To. 3. difp. i. a. 2. p. 5. and others. So 
<c Angles 2.d.22.q. 2. dub. 7. Vafqu. p. 2. difp. 1 2 1. 
"In cafe they never doubted of the Veracity of their 
" Prelates 

Much more faith Santta Clara there, to prove that 
the ignorant Protectants here may befaved ; citing fur- 
ther CO his end, Zanchez^in Dtral. 1.2. c. 1. ;;. 8. Alph. 

a. / rtflro. 


aCaftrOj Simanca^ Argon, Tanner , Faber, Eman r .fa, 
Ro^elL And out of Argon tells us when Faith is furfici- 
ently propofed, viz.. £ tc When faith is fo confirmed 
" by Reafons, holinefs of life, the confutation of the 
" contrary errors, and by fome figns, as that Reafon it 
(C felf begiitneth prudently to prefcribe , that ^ the mat- 
" ters of faith heard are to be believed > and the con- 
(C trary Seft is falle. 3 p. 125. 

" And probl, 26. p. 127. Whether men may be 
cc blamelefly ignorant of the Law of Nature and the 
u Decalogue ? The common opinion is that they may 5 
<c not of the firit principles, but 1. Of the eafie conclu- 
<c fions for fome time, and of the remoter conclufions 
c< for a longer time : Such are the Commandments of 
u the Decalogue as to the fubftance of the aft • as in 
" fome lying, theft, fornication, manflaughter ( in Will 
cc at Ieafl: ^ &c. 

R. £u. 1 1. But do you think that men may not as 
invincibly and inculpably be unacquainted with the Au- 
thority of the Pope and Ro- 
man Councils or Church, as H-iden. 1. 1. c 9 . p. 169. ^u-^t 
you fey they may be igno- S^SrffS 
rant ofChrift, and the Law fempr fomfe in dm ^ir.e 

nfNhmri-? T inft-ance in rhe f ltum nov ' mi « ? S»^ndiu fane 
or r\acurc t 1 inrtance in une arhhretUY qui fi iam tujufrhodi 

millions of the Abafjlne fidci alium lumini vaturalt tr 
rnrifl-hnc nrhn fnr ulvwp a WJoni obpofttum & contYari H m 

^nrntians, wno ior aoove a e f ei „ equaqiia m ^em ad uium 
thoufand years never heard eiuicndum tftvingU 
from the Pope or his 

P. That cannot bedenyed 3 For they have not the ne- 
cefTary means. 

R . How then do you make your Churches propofal 
to be the necefTary point to be Explicitly believed 
of all? 

P, We do not mean it of all that will befavecj: For 
D 3 you 


you hear that feme may be faved without any ex^licite 
belief of Chrift. But'we mean it (fail thauW//be in 
the Church, and be faved there . 

R. But do you not hold and fay , that out of the 
Church there is no falvation ? 

P. Some fay fo : and fome fay that It is rare out of 
the Church. 

R. But are the Ethiopian Chriftians out of the 
Church ? 

P. They are out of the true Church, being Schif- 

R. Why faid your Author before, that Infidels were 
not formally out of the Church who are invincibly ig- 
norant > 

Pi B .1: other Doctors are of another opinion. 
R. But Chrift is the Saviour of his body : Are not 
thofe of the Church who are faved, or in a flare of fal- 
vation ? What he-Id vou of that ? 

P. S'imefay, They are all of the Church : and others 
that Cbri ft faveth more than his Church : And fome fay, 
that They are of the Church Regenerate, but not of 
the Church Congregate. But few own this, becaufe 
it is your diftindion : as of a viiible and invifible 

R. Qi±. III. Bur above ail, I would know of you, 
what you mean by the (ZitholickChurch, whofe propofal 
is neceflary to the being of f ith ? 

P. We mean the Roman Ca holick Church : that is, 
t h e Pop e and his Sn b ,c Us* 

R. Do you mean the Pope without a General Coun- 
cil, or a General Council wi.hour the Pope? or only 
both agreeing and conjunct > 

R. You ta^e advantage of our differences: but thofe 
do but fhew, that this is no point of faith. Some hold 
that the Pope alone may ferve : aad fome, that the Pope 


\ 39) 
in a Provincial Council : and fome that a General 
Council without him : But you heard Veron taketh in 
the Council, and it is no true Council without the 
Pope : And therefore the fureft opinion faith, that it 
muft be both in Concord. 

R. But what is the Vniverfal Church whofe Pradicc 
is made fufficient inftead of, or without a General 
Council ? 

P. It is the whole Roman Church real, diflind from 
the Representative. 

R. Is it the Clergy only, or the Laity only • or muft 
it be both? 

P. Both, but not equally •, but in their fever al places. 

R. Muft it be All the Church, wkhout any except- 
ed ? Or only the greater part ? 

P. Thefe are points not agreed of, and therefore not 
of faith. Some fay that it muft be fo many as that the 
diflenters be not confiderable. But how many are con- 
siderable or inconflderable is undetermined. Others 
fay, It may be the minor part that pra&ife, fo be it the 
reft do not contradid it, or do contrarily. 

R. I will trouble you with no more fuch queftions , 
( though I have a multitude which fhouid be here re- 
folved ) for I perceive that we muft exped nothing but 
a Maze of uncertainties and confufion. 

We are next in order to Agree upon our common 
principles which muft be fnppofed in our following Di- 
fpute : For they that Agree in nothings are uncapable 
of difpnting of any thing ; feeing all conclufions of 
which we doubt, muft be drawn from more evident 
truths^ of which we are lefs doubtful, and refolved into 
a conceded Principle. 



The Trincipl's which Tapifts and Troteftants 
are agreed in : And therein the full Jufti* 
fication of all the rroteftants ( f{eligion. 


"^He firfl: common Principle : That we are 
Men, having Reafon, and Free-will, and 
Senfe ; whofe Natural way of knowing things 
fcnfible, is by the perception of our fenfes } 

having noway of greater Certainty. 

R. I take it for a common principle , that we are 
Men, having Reafon, and Free-will, and Senfe : whofe 
natural way of Knowing things fenfible, is by the per- 
ception of our fenfes : And therefore that our rightly 
conflituted. or found fenfes, with their due media, about 
their proper obje&s are to be trufted •, being either cer- 
tain, or we have no certainty. 

P. I know what you intend : I grant it as you 
exprefs it. 

R. It muft then be granted us, that there is true 
Bread and Wine in fubftance remaining after the words 
of the Mafs-Priefts confecration. 

P. Yes : when you can prove, that the confecrated 
Bread and Wine are the proper objects of fenfe : which 
We deny ; they being not now Bread andWine. 

R. Is it by the Perception of fenfe that you deny it ? 
gr by other means ? ' ' 

P. No: 


P. No : It is by Faith and Reafon which are above 

R. Now you come to deny the Principle which you 
granted : Senfe is the pcrceiver of its own objetts : No 
'Faith, no Reafon can perceive them , but by fenfe : 
And if due fenfation perceive them, and Faith deny 
them, then Faith denyeth fenfe to be the proper natural 
ferceiver of its objetls , and our judgement of things 
fenfible to be fuch as muft: follow that perception. 
But we muft difpute of this anon, and will not now 
anticipate it. Only remember, that if you deny fenfe 
which is the firft Principle, no mortal man is capable 
of difputing with you, there being no lower principle 
to which we can have recourfe , and refolve our dif- 

The fecond Principle : That there is One only God, In* 
fnite in Being, Power,. Wifdom and Goodnefs j Our 
Owner, Ruler and Chief Good • Mo ft Holy, 'Jufl and 
True, and therefore cannot lye ; but is absolutely to 
be belitved, and trufted, and loved* 

R. I need not repeat it : Do you not Agree with us 
in this ? 

P. Yes : Heathens ( that are fober ) and Chriftians 
are agreed in it. 

R. You grant then, that this may be known by them 
that are no fubjeds of the Pope. Remember anon that 
we are not to be blamed for Believing God, 


Kt* ) 

The third Principle : That the whole frame of Nature 
within U6 and without us (within our reach ) is the 
fvgnal Revelation of God and his Will to ynan • called 
( Objectively ) The Light and Law of Nature. 

R. I fuppofe that this alfo may p^fs for a common 
granted Principle. 

P. Yes, as you expreft it : If we agree not of the 
Light and Law of Nature, we come fhort of Infidels, and 
meer Natural men. 

R. Obferve then, that we are Juftificd bvyour prin- 
ciples, for Believing and Trufting Gods Natural Reve- 
lation. The very firft part of which is made to our 
fenf's : By Natural Evidence. God (heweth us that 
Bread is Bread. 

P. Yes : when fenf ■: is found, and objects and media 
jufr, and God doth not contradict fenfe by fupernatu- 
ral Revelation. 

The fourth Principle : That Natural Revelation is be- 
fore fupcr natural , and fenfe before faith , and we 
are Men ( in order of Nature at leaft ) before we 
are Chriftians , and the former is fttll prefuppofed 
to the later. 

R. This alfo T fuppofe is a granted Principle. 

P. It is Td • Bat fee that you raife no falfe confe- 
quents fr< m it. 

R. I conclude from it, that He that denyeth the pei> 
ception of fenfe to be the certain way <of Judging of 


things fenfible, denyeth all the Certainty of faith > y and 
fubverteth the very foundations of it : And that we are 
juftified for our Ailcnting firft to Gods Natural Revelati- 
ons. It is God that made my fenfes and under ft an ding, 
and God that made the objebt and media, as Bread and 
Wine, and therefore God deceiveth me, if I be deceived 
in taking it for Bread a nd Wine after Confecration. But 
God is to be. believed, in his fir ft Revelations. 

P. You vainly call Senfacion , and Intellection or 
Knowledge of things fenfible by the name of Be- 

R. We will not vainly contend about the Name, if 
we agree of the Thing : But this leadeth me to ano- 
ther Principle, 

The fifth Principle : That the Knowledge of things fully 
fenfible hath more quieting , fatisfying Evidence, 
than our Belief of fuper natural Revelations alone, ai 
made to ns by a Prophet or Apoftle : And that where 
all the found fenfes of all men living do agree about 
their near and proper fenfible object, there is themoft 
fatisfying Evidence of all* 

R.X fuppofe that we are all agreed alfo in this principle. 

P. As you word it we are : For our Divines diftin- 
guifh of Evidence and Certainty : and are fo far from 
faying that Faith hath more Evidence than Senfe and 
Knowledge, that it is ordinary with them to fay, that 
this is the difference between Faith and Knowledge, and 
that faith hath not Evidence : but yet it hath no lefs 

R. Some men life words firfl: to fport themfelves' 
out of their underflandings , and then to ufe others 



to the fame game. Evidence is nothing but the Tcr- 
ceptibility or Cognofcibility of a tiling : by which we 
call it Knowable ; which is the Immediate necefTary 
qualification of an Objetl oi Knowledge. Certainty is 
either Objective, which is nothing but this fame Cog- 
nofcibility or Evidence as in a Satisfying degree : Or 
it is Subjective or ACtive, which is nothing but the In- 
fallible or Trite , and quieting fatisfuCiory knowledge 
of a Truth. Where the Certainty of Objetl and Act 
concurr : For no man can be certain of a lye or un- 
truth : For to be Certain , is to be certain that it is 
True : Thofe therefore would befool the world , who 
would perfwade men, that a clear and confident per- 
ception of an untruth, or confident error, is Certain- 
ty. There may be Objective Truth and Certainty of 
the Matter , where there is not in us an Active or 
Subjective Certain Knowledge of it : But there can 
be no Active Certainty of an Obtitive Uncertainty, 
or certain Knowledge of a lye. Now if you mean 
that faith hath Ob.ettive Certainty without Evidence of 
Certainty, or Afcertaining Evidence ■ , that is, but to 
fay and unfay i It hath Certainty and no C €rta * nt y : 
For this C crt ^ nt y ' dn & Evidence is all one. But if you 
mean that Faith hath an Active Subjective Certainty 
without an Objective Certainty in the Matter, you fpeak 
p\\ impoili'oility and contradiction j a> if you faid, [ / 
clearly fee a thing invifnde or without light. J 

P, Do you think that our Divines knew not what tlu-y 
faid, when thev fay that to believe without Evidence 
nukeih faith mentor torn f 

R. The old afferters of this meant the fame that 
Chrift meant, when he faith to Thowat [B'cfjcd are they 
that have not feen, and yet have believed.^] There is a 
fenfible Evidence, and an Intelligible Evidence, Faith 
hath not an Immediate fen felc Evidence * that is, we be- 


(45 ) 
lieve things anfeen, and above kn(c : And this is their 
; meaning-/ We fee not God, Ghrift, Heaven, Angels, 
ffc. But faith hath alwaies Intelligible Evidence of 
Ferity . and (as our Mr. R.Hooker faith ) can go no 
further than it hath fuch Evidence. 

However, I appeal to any that have not been difputed 
out of their wits, whether, If Gcd would give us as full 
a fight of Heaven and Hell, and Angels and BlefTed 
fouls, as we have of the Bread and Wine before us, and 
as full a Hearing of all that they fay, in juftification of 
Holinefs, or Lamentation of fin, and as full fenfible ac- 
quaintance with the world we go to, and cur title to 
it, as we have with this world, I fay, whether this wouid 
not be more afcertaining and fatisfa&ory to us, and ba- 
nifh all doubts, more than our prefent faith doth ? I 
love not to hear men lie as for God, and talk and boaft 
againft their experience, as if the intereft of faith re- 
quired it. Things revealed to faith Are Certain and 
Infallible. But that is becaufe we have certain evidence 
i . That Cod cannot lie » 2. And that God revealed them . 
and fo that they are True. But if we did fee, feel, tafie, 
dcd we fhould be more certain. Elfe why is it faid, 
that we now know but enigmatically and as in aglafs^ 
and as children-, but hereafter Jliall fee as face to face , 
and know as we are known, when faith is done away y 
as being more Imperfect than Intuition. We have evi- 
dence to prove, that the Revelation made to David, 
Ifaiah, Jeremiah, l Pctir, Paul, &c. were of God, and 
that their words are by us to be believed, &c. But to 
fee, hear, talk, feel, &c. would be a more quieting Af- 

Therefore when all the found fenfes of all men liv- 
ing, perceive after confecration, that there is Bread and 
Wine, this Certaimy is, i . in order antecedent to that of 
faith) and 2* by Evidence, more fat is fy ing and affuring 

than that of meer faith, as to a prophets Revelation -, 
And therefore to rejed it on pretence of faith , is a fub- 
verfion of o } \ natural methods of afTurance . and is but 
pretended, I think, by your felves. 

The fixth Principle. That except thofe Immediate In- 
fpirations which none but the Jnfpired do Immediately 
and clearly perceive^ we have no Revelations from 
God, but by fignes ; which are created beings ^ and 
have their feveral Natures, and fo may be called 
Phy fical , though fignifying Moral things . And thus 
far our natural and fupematural Revelations agree. 

K. Every being is either "Uncreated f which is God 
only) or Created (in a large fen fe, that is Caufed:) 
What God Revealed to Chrift, Peter, Paul, &c. we 
have knowledge of, but by fignes : In Scripture thefe 
fignes are Words : Thefe words fignifie partly the mind 
of Cjod, and the fpeakers or writers, and partly the 
matter fpoken or written. When it is fuid, that It is 
impoffible for God to lye, it can mean nothing to us, but 
that it is impoffible that God fbould make us a deceit- 
ful fign of his will. The voice of an Angel, Prophet, 
Apoftle, a thoufand Miracles, ore. are but fignes of the 
matter and of Gods will: And if God can ordinarily 
make faife natural fignes, we are left unafiured that he 
cannot make faife fignes by an Angel, or a Prophet, or a 
Miracle. And fo all faith is left uncertain. 

P. Then you will make God a lyar or deceiver when- 
ever any man is deceived by natural fignes. 

R. Not fo : For men may deceive :hemfe!ves by ta- 
king thofe for fignes of a thing which are none, and 
fo by m fonder fan ding them. And the Devil and bad 


men may promote this deceit. JBut whenever Godgiv- 
eth man fo pLiia af:n of the Matter and his Will, as 
that no errour of an a-nfonyidfenfe^ zxiunqus'ified object^ 
a culpable or diieakd fantafie or 7«ff//fc^(hiterveneth, 
then Bf we are deceived it can be none but God that 
doth deceive us -, which cannot be, becaufeher^wf lye. 
And as it is an unrefiftible argument againft the Domini- 
can doctrine of Phyftcal Predetermination as abfolutely 
necefTary to all alls of natural or free agents, that If God 
phyjically predetermine every lyar to ivery lye, that is 
mentally conceived or uttered, then we have no certainty 
but he might do fo by the Prophets and Apo files ; fo is it 
as good an argument againft Papifts, that if he ordina- 
rily deceive the fenfes of all found men by a falfe ap- 
pearance of things feeming fenfible, he may do fo alfo 
by the audible or legible words of a prophet. 

The feventh Principle. That he that will confute fen fe y 
and prove that we jhould not Judge actor ding to its 
perceptions , mufc prove it by fome more certain evi- 
dence that contraditleth it. 

R. I fuppofe you will not queftion thi?. 

P. No : The word or Revelation of God is a more 
certain evidence. 

R. How know you that there is any word of Cod y 
but by vour fenfes ? 

P. But yet by fenfe I may get a certainty which is 
above that of things fenfible. As I know by the world 
that there is a God, by a certainty above that of fenfe. 

R. i . If that were fo, yet if things fenfible be your 
media, you deftroy your Conclusion by denying them, 
and undermine your own foundation. 

2. But 

2* But it is not true : The knowledge of the Con- 
clufion can be no ftronger than that of the pirincU 
pies, even of the weaker of them. If you are in any 
uncertainty whether there be Sun, Moon, Heaven^ 
Earth, Man, Beaft, Heat, Cold or any Created fenfible 
being, you muft needs be in as much doubt whether there 
be a God that made them. 

The eighth Principle. That Believing or AfTenting is 
Intelle&ion of the Truth of fomething revealed, and 
therefore muft have Intelligible Evidence of Truth in 
the thing believed. 

R< I know that Affiance or Trufi as it is the act of the 
W:ll, repofing it felf quietly on the Believed fidelity of 
God, is not Intellection. But the Affenting ad is an 
Intcllettion or an Act of Knowledge of a Verity ; not as 
Science is narrowly confined to principles, but as Know- 
ledge is taken in gen ere for notitia. So to believe is 
no other than to know that this is true^ becaufe God 
faith it* Joh. 6.69. We believe and are fare that thou art 
that Chrift, &c. Joh. 3.2. We know that thou art a 
Teacher come from God } for no man could do fuch 
Works^&c. Joh. 21.24. We know that his teftimoity 
is true — See Rom. 7.14. & 8.28. 2 Cor. 5. 1* 
We know that if this earthly houfe, &c 1 Tim. 1. 8. 
1 Joh. 5. 2. Joh. 8. 28, 32. 1 Cor. 15. 58. We know 
that our Labour is not in vain^ &-c. Therefore your 
denying the certainty where. the evidence ismoft noto- 
rious and telling men of Meriting if they will but be- 
lieve your Church, without any Evidence of certainty, 
is a meer chca:* 



The ninth Principle. That Jefius Chrifi is the Son of 
God And the Saviour of the World, and that Chrifiia- 
nity is the true Religion, and Gods appointed fufficient 
way to Heaven, including Godlinefs, which is its fi- 
nal part. 

R* By Chriflianity I mean both our Believing, Lov- 
ing and obeying Chrifi as the way to the Father, and 
our Believing, Loving and Obeying God our Father, as 
the end of Chrifts Mediation : The Knowledge of God 
and the Mediator being Eternal Life, Joh. 17. 3. And 
as Taking a man for my Phyficion, is taking him, by his 
.medicines to help me to my health, and fo Health is fi- 
nally included* fo taking Chrift for my Saviour, is to 
take him by faith to be the means of bringing me to the 
Love of GWand to Glory : And fo I include Godlinefs 
in Chriflianity, and the Law of Nature in the Law of 

P. We are agreed on the truth of this ; but not of 
the medium by which it muft be made known to us. 

R. At the prefent I ask no more than that we agree in 
Chriftianity as the true and fufficient Religion and way 
to life. 

The tenth Principle. That Baptizing is our Ckriftw- 
ing i And that all that are truly Baptized are £hri- 
ftiansj and mem for s of the vifible Church, unt ill they 
Apofiatize or arejufily excommunicate {at leafi.) 



P. I grant you all this as a common Principle with 

R. Then you grant us, i. That our Religion is the 
True Religion - 9 of Gods appointment, fufficient to fal- 
vation : For it is Ckriflianity, which you confeffed to be 
fuch. 2. You grant that we are baptized into the true 
Catholick Church, which is the bodv cf Chrift. 

The eleventh Principle. That all that are truly Bap- 
tizedhave the pardon of all their (ins, and have prefcnt 
right to falvation if they fo die. 

R. I mean, that they that are Internally true Confent- 
ers to the baptifmal Covenant , and are baptized, have all 
thefe benefits of Baptifm : And that Infants have them 
as rightly dedicated to God and baptized : Do not you 
Content to this ? 

P. Yes, you km w we do. 

R. Then you fully grant, that all among the Prote- 
ftantswhoin Infancy or at age are truly baptized are 
in a ftate of falvation : Why then would you make peo- 
ple believe that there is no falvation in our Churches, 
when you grant the right to all that are Baptized. 

P. But you are not Baptized by lawful Minifters. 

R. Take heed what you fay : Your party holdeth 
that even Schifmaticks and Hereticks Baptifm is valid, 
if they have all that is eilential to Baptizing in the do- 
ing of it : Yea that a lay mans, or womans baptizing is 
valid. If you deny it, I will fhame you, by producing 
the common confen&of your Dv&ors •, and your cenfure 


f 50 

of Cyprian, and making the contrary do&rine to be a 

P. But you have not all that is eflential to Baptifm, 
becaufe you are not intentionally Baptized, into the true 
Catholick Roman Church : Fur while you are not fub- 
jed to the Pope, you are not baptized into the Church : 
and therefore Bcllarmine fheweth that indirectly we are 
obliged to the Pope by baptifm j which you intend not. 

R. Come, come, ftrive not againft your knowledge. 

1. If our Baptifm have not all that is efTential, why 
do you never rebaptize Proteftants when they turn to 
you? Do you not find that you condemn your felves ? 

2. Why do not you your felves put the name of the 
Pope into your words of baptifm ? 3. Doth your Tra- 
dition tell you that the ancient Churches did baptize 
men into a fubjedion to the Pope ? 4. Did any of the 
Primitive Chriftians baptize men into the name or fnb- 
jettion of Peter or any Apoftle ? 5. Doth not Paul 
expreily renounce it as to himfelf and Peter, 1 Cor. i c 
12, 13, 14, 15. Every one of yen faith, I am of Paul, 
and 1 of Apollo, and I of Cephas, and J of Chrifi : Is 
Chrifi divided ? Was Paul Qrmified for yon ? or were ye 
baptized in the name of Paul, &c . 6. Did not Chrifl: 
himfelf tell us all that was Eflential to baptifm in his in- 
ftitution, ajfrfatth. 28 without making any mention of 
Peter or the Pope ? 

P* I cannot deny but our doctrine inferreth that all 
that are baptized among you have a true Sacrament, but 
not the Benefit of it, and fo are not in a ftate of pardon 
and falvation : Or at Ieaft when you come to age, by re- 
fufing the Pope, you turn Hereticks and lofe it. 

R. I know fome of your divided writers fay that we 
have Sacramentptm, but not Rem Sacramenti : But 
1. You fay that a Character is imprinted by Baptifm, 
and all fin done away, and the perfon in a ftate <tf life,un- 

E % fefs 


lefs he come feignedly ^ which you will not charge on 
Infants, nor can you prove it by thofe of the Anabaptifls 
themfdves that are baptized at age. And faith Aquinas 
when the fldion ceafeth, the fruits of baptifm are ob- 
tained. 2. And it will be long ere you will prove that to 
be baptized into the name of the Trinity is uneffedual, 
if we leave out the Pope. 3 . And you will hardly make 
a man underftand what you mean by the validity of the 
Baptifm of Hereticks and Schifmaticks, if it neither take 
the Baptized into the true Vilible Church, nor the inviii- 
ble (' or a flate of faving grace ). 

And as to Infants lofing it as you fay at age by Herefie. 
1 . Will you fave all the Anabaptifls, that are baptized at 
age ? If their baptifm put them into a flate of falvation, 
and they continue jufl of the fame faith and mind that 
they were baptized in, fure that faith which put them 
in a flate of falvation, will keep them in it ^ or not be 
damning through dcfedivenefs to morrow, which made 
them heirs of Heaven to day. But you cannot make 
your dodrines hang together. 2. And they that are 
Baptized in Infancy are baptized into the fame faith 
which they continue in at age. The Minifler intendeth 
no other : The Parents, Sponfors, arc. intend no 
other: And will that prove defective even to Salvation 
after, which was faving then } 3 . If Baptifm make us 
Chriftians • and if Chrifiianity be the true Religion , 
fufficient in fuo genere to falvation, then we that con- 
tinue in the Qnifiianity which we were baptized into, 
by your confeflion continue in the true faving Religion:, 
And this is aU our Religion. 

P. It is not every one that owneth Chrifiianity that 
frail be faved : Hereticks own it in general, and yet 
contradid it by their Herefie?. 

F. It is every one that truly owneth Qoriftianity in 
mind and will that (hall be fayed : elfe Chrifiianity 


were not a faving fufficient Religion : The queftion is 
not whether objective foriftianity or faith be fufficient 
to fave him that believeth not, or is not fubjellively a 
Chriftian -, nor whether the dotlrine of faith be fuffi- 
cient in omni genere : But whether it be a fufficient do- 
ctrine, or eb ettive faith, in fito genere ? If a Heretic^ 
deny any elTential part of it, he believeth not that which 
he ( really, underfhndingly and prevalently ) denyeth. 
It is but the Name of ftriftianity, and not the Thing, 
which he owneth, who difowneth any ot the effrnce. 
Our queftion is now whether our profeffed ob ecbive 
Faith be trite and fufficient . ? When you come ro prove us 
heretical denyers of any of its efTaice, we- will give you 
a fufficient anfwer. 

The twelfth Principle. That the Effe nee of our Religi- 
on or Chriftianity as Active and Saving, is Faith that 
worketh by Love : Orfuch a Belief in Cjod the Fa- 
ther, Son and Holy Ghofi, as is accompanied with a 
true devoting of our fe Ives to him, by Love and wil- 
lingnefs to obey his Laws, fo far as we know them ; 
in oppojition to the temptations of the world, the flejh 
and the Devil : And he that ps truly fuch fhatt be 
faved. > 

P. I grant that he that truly Loveth God, fhall befa- 
ved : But a Proteftant cannot truly love God, becaufe 
he hath not true faith . 

R. Do you not agree and confefs then, that If any 
Proteftants do truly Love God, and are fmcerely willing 
to obey his will, and to know it that they may obey it, 
fuch are of the true Religion and fhall be faved, and that 
popery which denyeth their falvation is falfe ? 

E 3 P. If 


1\ If your falfc fuppofition were true, thefe falfe/ 
conftquents would be true : But you are all deceived 
when you think that you fincerely Love God, and are 
willing to know and do his will. 

R> i. Let all Protectants note this firft, that you grant 
that none but 3$* faljhearted Hypocrites, that are not 
what they profefs to be, and Love not God, nor would 
cbey him , fhould turn Papifts. 

2. And if a man cannot know his own A4indand\Vill, 
what he Lovethznd what he is willing of, no not about 
his End and great eft concernments, how can he know 
when he Believeth aright ? Why do you trouble the 
World thus with your noife about Believing the Propofals 
of your Church, if a man cannot know whether he be- 
lieve or not f i$> And he that cannot know what he 
Willeth , Choofeth or Loveth, can no more know what he 
believeth. For the Atts of the Will are more plenary 
and eafily perceived. And do all Papifts know their 
own Hearts or Minds, but no Proteftants ? What 
would youexpeci but indignation andderifion by fuch 
arguing as this, if you will go about the world and tell 
men, £ Ton none of you know your own Minds and 
wills, but we know them ^ Tou think )'°u Love God, and 
are Willing to obey him j but you are all miftakgn^ it 
it not fo with you : but you muft believe our Pope and 
his Council, and then you way ktww your own minds 
and hearts!^ They that believe you on thefe rates, de- 
ferve the deceit of believing you \ and punifli them- 



The thirteenth Principle. That when fori ft defer ibed all 
the Effence of Chriftianity, by our Believing in and 
being baptised into, the name of the Father y the Son 
and the Holy Ghofl y the Apo files and firfl Paftors of 
the Churches, in fir tilled people to under fiand the mean- 
ing of thefe three Articles -, *And the ancient Creed 
called the Apoftles, is the expofhron of them, as to Be- 
lief: And that this Creed was of old the fymbolof the 
true faith, by which men were fnfpofed fufficienxly 
qualified for baptifm, and diftinguifiwd from Here- 
ticks : which after was enlarged by occafwn of here- 
fas to tVe fflictne aha fonft 'antinopolit arte Qreed ; To 
which that call d A than alius'.* was added as a fuller 
explication of the doctrine of the Trinity : And he 
that believed all thefe, was taken for one of the true 
Chriftian Religion, which was fuffcient in fuo genere 
to falvation* 

P. All that was then Neceffary to be explicitely be- 
lieved, neceffitate medii, was exprefTed in the Creeds 
( if not more ) : But not all that is now neceffary when 
the Church hath propofed more. 

R, i. Some of you fay., no more is neceflary ut me- 
dium, but to believe that God is, and that he is a reward- 
er of them that diligently feek^him : Others fay that 
the chief articles of the Creed alfo are commonly ne- 
ceffary : And in your difcord we lay no great weight 
on your Opinions. 2, But is not Chriflianity the fame 
Thing now as it was at the beginning ? Is Baptifm 
altered ? Hath not a foriftian now the fame definition 
as then ? Are not thrifts promifes and the Conditions 
theTame ? Shall not he that was a Chriftian then, be 

E 4 faved 

faved if he were now alive ? May not we be Qiriftians, 
and faved by the fame (fonflitutive faufes which made 
rnen Qhriflians, and faved them in the primitive (fhur- 
ches ? Subvert not Chriftianity, and confound not the 
Church, and cheat not poor fouls, by labouring to hide 
the ejjence of (hrifliamty, and fuch plain important 
truths. You cannot deny our faith to be true , without 
condemning the ancient Church and Chriftianity it felf : 
While we aloud profefs that the Chriflian faith ex- 
plained in all the ancient Creeds, is the faith which we 
own, in its EfTentials explicated. 

The fourteenth Principle. That the Books which the 
Proteftants commonly receive as Canonical Scriptures, 
are in the agt eeing Original Copies, as to the very 
Words, and in true Tranfations at to the fence , the 
mofl true Infallible word of God, 

R. I grant that where the Copies dif agree by various 
Readings, we are no more fure that any of them is the 
word of God, than we are fure, that fuch a Copy is 
righter than all that differ from it. But as long as the 
efftnee of Chriflianity on which our Salvation is laid, 
is in the Covenant of Grace, explained in Crcdendis 
in the [reed, and in Petendus, in the Lords Prayer, snd in 
Agendis in the Decalogue as explained by Chrifl. 
And no one Duty or material do&rine of our Religion 
dependethon the various Lettions, but thofe texts that 
Agree are fufficient to eftablifh them all ^ yea, as Franc. 
/? SanEla- Clara fyflem. fid, proferTeth, the ordinary 
Tranfia'ions fo agree, as that no material point of Re- 
ligion doth depend on any of their differences •, It is as 
much as we affert, t v at the Agreeing Original Copies r 



and the found Tranflations, fo far as they are fuch, 
are the True Infallible word of God • the former both 
as to words and fence, and the later as to fence alone. 
Do you not grant this ? 

P. We grant the Scripture as you fay to be Gods 
Infallible word ^ But i. You cannot know it to be fo, 
becaufe you take it not on the Roman Churches Autho- 
ritative Propofal ^ 2. And you leave out part of it. 

R. i . Whether we can know it, (hall be tryed in due 
place. 2. And whether we have All of it, or enough, 
is another queftion, to be debated when you will. You 
grant us exprefly that which we now defire ^ which is 
the Infallible Truth of our Canonical Scripture. And 
this is All our Religion, containing not only the EJfenti- 
als, but all the Integrals, and Accidentals needful to be 
recorded. So that All the Protefiants Religion is con- 
fejfedto be Infallibly True. 

And from hence further note, that in all our difputes, 
you are obliged to be the defendants, as to Truth : For 
we deny the Truth of much of your Religion, but you 
deny not the Truth of one word of ours : but only the 
Plenitude or Sufficiency. 

P. The name of a Proteftant was never known till 
Luther s time : And the occaflon of it was a particular 
Proteftation of the German Princes, and not dire&Iy a 
Vrote fling againft Ropery. 

R. It is not Names but Religion which we difpute of. 
And it is that which each party Profejfeth to be their 
Religion* Therefore you muft take our Profejfion or 
you change the fubjcclof the difpute. And we frofcfi, 
that the Law of Nature ( which no fober man quefti- 
oneth ) and the Script ures,zxt All our Religion. There- 
fore if you pleafe you fhall fuppofe that the name Pro- 
teflantwerz not now in the world : It doth not fignific 
our Religion. But we now ufe it to fignihe our Protcft- 

ing dgahtft Popery) or that we agree in fubftance^ and 
iii rejecting Popery, with thofe that made that particular 
Proteftation mentioned by you. 

Names are oft given from accidents j as Africans , 
GcrmanicM, Britannic tu, &c. to feveral Roman Cap- 
tains • when yet their Humanity was the fame before 
they were fonamtd. 

P. Turks, Socinians, Quakers, crc Protcft againfl: 
Popery : It feems then they are Protectants too • and 
your companions. 

R, i. Thus fome men ftudy to deceive, by turning 
from the queftion to another. Ourqueftion I tell you 
is Whether the Religion of the Proteftants be Infallible * 
and not, Whence is their name ? 2. But by a Proufvani 
we mean only one that taketh the Scripture for the Rule, 
and foriflianity for the Ejfence of his Religion : Which 
no one doth that denyeth any effential part of ir. If 
we do fo, prove it, and you ihall have our anfwer. 
How da you judge of any man among your felves that 
taketh Gods word propofed by your Church for his Re- 
ligion, and yet miftaketh the Church in any point: As 
Burandm that thought the matter of Bread continues, 
whom Be liar mine yet denyeth to be an Heretic k. So is 
it with anv among us that miftake the fence of Scripture 
in fome fuch poim. 

When a Name is put upon any pcrfon or party from 
a common accident, you may if you will call all by that 
name which that accident agreeth to : And fo Pafifts are 
called by fome Non-conformifts now in England, becaufe 
they Conform not ; But the world knoweth well enough 
that it is Proteftants which are commonly meant by that 
~*me, and not Papifts, Quakers S\ckers, orr- though 

fe conform not. And fo vou may fay if it pleafe 

r felf that Turks, Jews, Hcaihens, Socinians, Qua- 

>, Ranters, are Proteftants^ becaufe they Prctcft 

againft 7 

againfi^or reject Popery : But the world knoweth who 
is meant by the Name, JLvenfcbriftians rejctling proper 

And for my part, I deal openly with you, I care not if 
the name Proteftantwerz utterly call: aiide • If any man 
be fo deceived by it as i , Either to think that it flgnifieth 
the Efiexce of our Religion ( unlefs you mean as we 
Protejl for Chriftianity. ) 2. Or that we take thofe 
called Proteftants for the whole Catholick^Charch, they 
make it an occafion of their own deceit : Names of di- 
ftin&ion are ufed, becaufe men know not elfe readily 
how to fpeak intelligibly of one another without circum- 
locutions : And then cometh the Sectarian, and taketh 
his Party, for all the Church ( at fealt which he may 
lawfully Communicate with), and the name of his party 
to notifie his Religion, And then comes the crafty Pa- 
pift, and pretends from hence that fuch a named Religi- 
on is new • and asketh you, where was there any fe. g.) 
Proteftants before Luther ? 

My Religion is naked Chriftianity, the fame as is 
where the name of a Proteftam is not known, and as was 
before it was known ^ and as if the name of the Pope 
had never been known. But now the Pope and his Mo- 
narchical Vfurpation over all the world, are rifen and 
known, I am one of thofe that proteft againft them, as 
being againft Chriftianity which is my Religion 5 But fo 
as to addict my felf to the opinions of no man or party 
that oppofeth them, wholly and abfolutely and beyond 
evidence of truth : I take the Reformed Churches, to 
be the foundeft in the world : But I take their Conferli- 
ons to be all the Imperfect expreflions of men •, and the 
Writings of Proteftant Divines to be fome more clear 
and found, and fome more dark, empty, and lefs found, 
and in many things I differ from many of them. Choofe 
now whether you will call me a Proteftant or not ^ I 



tell you my Religkn , which is firnple Chrifliamty : 
Names are at your own Will. I could almoft wifh 
that there were no name known befides that of CHRI- 
STIAN as notifying our faith and Religion^ in the 
Chriftian world ("Though as notifying Herejie and 
fin y there muft be proper names , as in Rev. the name 
Nicolaitans is ufed ). Even the word Catholic!^ had 
long a narrower fenfe in the Empire with many than 
I now own it in. Though as it fignifieth One that is 
of the Church Vniverfal, loveth Vniverfalty all true 
ChriftianSy and hath Communion with them in Faith, 
Love, and Hope, fo I like it, and am A CATHO- 
LICK CHRIST I A N. I difpute for nothing 
elfe ^ I perfwade this perfon here in Doubt, to no- 
thing elfe-, but i. To hold fail to true and meer Chrifti- 
anity^ 2. To Reject all in Popery or any other Sed 
that is Evidently again ft it j 3. To fufpend his belief 
of all thats doubtful*, and to receive nothing as a part of 
Divine faith or Religion-, till he be fure that indeed it 
is of God. 

And now thefe Principles being fuppofed, let us pro- 
ceed, and try whether Popery be of God or not. 




The (prrteftants (Reafons againjl Popery. 

D. "y Have heard what you have faid in ftating the 
Protefiants Religion : I now exped: to hear 
what Reafons yon have againfl that which yon 
call Popery : And afterwards that you prove 
all that you charge upon it. But I adjure you firft that 
you fay nothing but what you believe in your confer- 
ence to be the truth, as one that looketh to be judged 
for it. 

R. With many Papifts confident and vehement pro- 
teftations go inftead of Arguments , and we oft hear 
them fay, |~ If this be not true, I am content to be 
torn in a thoufand pieces : We will feal it with our 
blood : We will lay . our falvation on it : And do yon 
think* we have not fouls to fave ? &c.~] k Which is 
much like as if they would end all Controversies by lay~ 
ing Wagers that they are in the right, o* by protefting 
that they are honefier and credibler men than their 
adversaries : And it is no more than a Quaker or 
other fuch Se&ary will fay : the moft proud and igno- 
rant being ufually the moft confident : But yet though 
I exped not that you fhould receive any thing from 
me, upon Protefiations, but upon Proofs, I will here pro- 
mife you that I will charge nothing on the Papifts, but 
what in my Confcience I am verily perfwaded to be 



The Reafon.s which refolve me againft Popery are thefe 
andfuch like. 

I. Reafon, Their Doctrine of Tranfubftantiation is 
fo notorioufy falfe and inhumane, even contrary to the 
fuijeft afcertaining evidence that mankind can exped 
en earth, ( viz.. for all men on pain of damnation to 
believe, that there is no Bread, and no Wine, when all 
the founded: fenfes of any men in the world, do perceive 
Bread and Wine, by feeing it , tafling it, feeling it, 
fmellmg it, and by the notorious ejfetls ; and all this 
built upon no Revelation of God, no Reafon at all, nor 
any true confent of the Primitive Church , but clean 
contrary to them all ; ) that I iblemnly profefs, that I 
find if an utter Impojfibility to believe it : And it often 
puts me to a doubt, Whether it be poffible for any mor- 
tal man unfeignedly and fully to believe it, and Whe- 
ther there be really any fuch Papift in the world I or 
Whether moft do not for carnal refpe&s take on them 
to believe it, when they do not •, or rather the Vulgar 
underftand their words, as not really excluding the true 
being of Bread and Wme ^ and the reft only fomewhat 
overawing their own reafon with a reverence of their 
Church, fo far as not to contradict, or fo far as nati- 
onally to own it, when they do not from the heart be- 
lieve the thing. 

So many contradictions, abfurdities, and impieties are 
to be by them believed with it, that I am furenoman 
that underftandeth them, canpollibly believe them all. 

And all this muft be done by Miracles, fupendious 
miracles, daily or common miracles , which every 
Prufl can do a. his plcafure, and never fail , fober or 
drunken, greater than raifing a man from the dead $ fo 


that every beaftly, fordid, ignorant Prieft, (hall do more 
miracles by far, than ever Jefus Chrift did in all his life 
on earth, as far as ive know by the holy Records, ( if 
he live as long J). He that can believe all this, may next 
believe, that there is neither Earth under his feet, nor 
the Firmament over his head, nor Water, nor Air, nor 
any other Creature, and that he hath no being himfelf. 

1 1. Reafon : The Faith or Religion of the Papifts, 
as defcribed by themfelves, is fo far from Infallibility, 
as that it is utterly uncertain, unintelligible, and meer 
contradiction and confulion » 'and a changeable thing j 
fo that no man knoweth whether he have it or not, 
and whether he have it all •, But whoever hath it, he 
hath certainly a hodge-podge of truth and falihood. 

III. Reafon. Their Papacy, which efTcntiateth their 
Church, is a horrid Ufurpation of Chrifts own Prero- 
gative, and of an Office to do that which is incompa- 
parably above the Natural Power or Capacity of any 
mortal man •, even to be the Apoftle and Governour of 
the whole world ( of Chriftians at leaft ) • To take 
Charge of all the fouls on earth . to teach and call thofe 
that are uncalled, and to Rule thofe that are baptized ': 
even at the Antipodes, and in all thofe unknown or in- 
accefTible parts of the world, which he hath no know- 
ledge of: A far more arrogant undertaking, than to be 
the Civil Monarch of ail the earth ; and utterly im- 
poflible for him to perform, and which never was per- 
formed by him. 



I V. Reafon. The faid Papacy is an arrogant U- 
furpation of the Power of all the Chriftian Princes and 
Pallors upon earth, or of a Power over them, never 
given by Chrift : It fetteth up a Kingdom in a King- 
dom, and taketh from Paftors the power which Chrift 
gave them, over their particular flocks. 

V. Reafon. The faid Papacy is a meer humane Ihfti- 
tution : They confefs themfelves , that it is not of 
Divine faith that the Bifhop of Rome is Sr. Peters Sue- 
ceilbr by Divine Right : It is no article of their own 
faith : But Hiftory fully afTureth us, that it was but 
in the Roman Empire, that the Roman Bifhop was made 
Supream : as the Archbifhop of Canterbury is in En- 
gland : And that he ftandeth on the fame humane foun- 
dation as the other four Patriarchs of the Empire did. 
And that their General Councils were called by the Em± 
ferours y and were called General only with refped to 
that Empire. And there never was fuch a thing as a 
General Council of all the Chriftian world, nor ever 
can be : And that there never was fuch, is mod noto- 
rious yet by the Names fubferibed to all the Councils. 
But they abufe the world, and claim that power over 
all the Chriftians on earth , which one Prince gave his 
fubjed- Prelates in his Empire : As if the General Af 
fembly of Scotland or France fhould pretend to be a 
General Council of the world y and the Archbifhop o£ 
Canterbury fhould call himfelf Archbifhop of all the 
Church on earth, and claim the government of it. 



V I. Reafon : The faid Papacy hold their claim of 
Sttpream Government as by Gods anointment ( though 
they confefs as before faid, that it is not de fide^ that 
the Poue fucceedeth Peter by Divine right ) and this no- 
toriously Contrary to the Judgement and Tradition of 
the far greateft fart of the Churches in the world : 
General Councils ( fuch as they had ) and the fenfe of 
the greateft part of Chriftians have determined againft 
the Papal claime. And Tradition condemneth them 
to this day, while they plead Tradition, 

VII; Reafon : It is Treafon againft Chrift for the 
Papifts who are but a Seci^ and not the third part of 
the Chriftians in the world , to call themfelves the 
whole (hurch^ and unchurch all the reft, and feek to rob 
Chrift of the far greateft part of his Kingdom, by de- 
nying them to be fuch : As if they would deny two 
third parts of this Kingdom to be the Kings. They are 
Sectaries and Schifmaticks by this arrogant dividing 
from all the reft, and appropriating the name and pri- 
viled^es of the Church to themfelves alone. 

VIII. Reafon: By making an unlawful and 1m- 
poffible Condition and Center of Church Vnion y they are 
the greateft Schifmaticks in all the world : The great- 
eft Dividers of the Church upon pretence ofVnity: 
As he would be a divider of this Kingdom, who would 
fet up a Vice-King without the Kings authority, and 
fay that none that fubjeft not themfelves to him, fhall 
be taken for fubje&s of the JCing. 

F IX. 

I X. Reafon ; They ftudioufly brand themfelves with 
Satansmark of malice, or uncharitablene fs and cruelty 
to mens fouls : while they fentence to damnation two 
third parts of the Chriflian world, becaufe they will 
not be the fubje&s of their Pope : And they think their 
way to Heaven is fafeft, becaufe they are bolder than 
us in damning other Chriftians : Whereas Love is the 
mark by which Chrifts Difciples mull be known 
to all. 

X. Reafon : They are inhumanely cruel to mens ho- 
dies : And this is their very Religion : For the Coun- 
cil at the Later ane under Innocent the third decreed, that 
thofe that believe not, or deny Tranfubftantiation are 
Hereticks, and all Temporal Lords {hall exterminate 
them from their Dominions : That is, no man fhall be 
fuffered to live under any Christian Lord, that will not 
renounce all his fenfes, and profefs that he believeth 
that they are all deceived by God himfelf •, which is not 
only to renounce their Humanity, but their Animality 
or fenfe it felf. So that no men indeed, are to be fuf- 
fered to live, but only fuch as deny themfelves to be 
men : What Heathens, what Turks, did ever exerdfe 
fuch Inhumane fury ? Beiides their burning and torment- 
ing men as Hereticks that will not do all this and more, 
and will not fay as they require them. 

X I. Reafon : Their Church indeed is invifble , 
while they deny ii , and an unknown thing : For, 
I. Men are forced into it by fuch bloody Laws, as that 
they cannot rationally be known to be Corfentcrs : 

2. And 

,2. Ana tney nave no certain faith to constitute a 
Church-member : For they hold that his obligation to 
believe, is according to his inward and outward means, 
of which no man can pofiibly judge c . And fo no man 
can know whether himfelf or another have that faith 
which is required as necetfary to falvarion. And many 
of them fay, That they that believe not in Chrifi, have 
fiving faiths and are in the Church, if they had not 
fufficient means. 

X 1 1. Re a f on t The Papacy doth intolerably tyran- 
nize over Kings, and teach fuch Do&rines of Perjury 
and Rebellion, as their very Religion, as is not in the 
pra&ice of it to be endured in any Kingdom - nor 
dare they fully practife it : The Crowns and Lives of 
Princes being at the mercy of the Pope h As the faid 
Later one Council fhewetfu 

XIII. Reafon : Their Qiurch is oft EJfent ially unho- 
ly, heretical and wicked, becaufe the Pope is often fa, 
who is an EJfential part of it • And therefore it is not 
the holy CatholickjChurch. General Councils have up- 
on examination judged their Popes to be Hereticks, 
Schifmaticks, Adulterer s> Murderers, Simonifls , yea, 
guilty of Blafphcmy or Infidelity it felf. And the 
Church cannot be Holy , whofe EJfential part is fo 

XIV. Reafon t Their Churches fuccejfwn is fo no- 
torioufly interrupted, and their Papacy fo often alte- 
red in its caufes, as that it is become a confounded and 
sl m^v uncertain thing. So many notorious or judged 

F z He- 


Hereticks,Simqnifts, Murderers, Sodomites, Adulterers 
have poflefTed the Seat, who were therefore Hncapable y 
that the line of iucceflion mull needs be interrupted by 
them. And fo many wayes have they been made or 
elected, fometimes by the people , fometimes by the 
City -Presbyters, fometimes by Emperours, fometimes 
by Cardinals, fometimes by Councils, that if any one 
way of Election be necefTary, they have loft their Papa- 
cy long ago. If no one way be necefTary , then the 
Turk may make a Pope. 

X V. Reafon : Their Church called One, is really 
two in fpccie » one Headed by a Pope , and another by 
^General Qrnncil : For while the Head or Supream Ruler 
is an Ejfential part, and one part of the. people own 
one Head and another part -own another Head , ( as 
they do ) the Churches thus conftituted cannot be 

And alfo de individuo there have been long two or 
three Popes at once , and confequently two or three 
Churches ; And to this day none knoweth which was 
the right. 

XVI. Reafon : They plead for a Church which ne- 
ver had a being in the world j that is, All Chriftians 
Headed by one Pope - y When all the Chriftian world 
did never take hirn for their Head, nor were governed 

by him to this day. 

XVII. Reafon: They dreadfully injure the holy 
Scriptures , as if jefta Cbrift, and all the Prophets and 
Applies \r\ all thofe Sacred Record;, had not had skjU 



Dr will to fpeak intelligibly, and plainly to deliver h$ 
:he do&rines neceffary to falvation : But they make 
:heir Voluminous Councils more intelligible and fuffici- 
mt - as if they had done better than Chrift and his 
Apoftles : And when men muft only Difcern Gods 
Laws, and fudge Caufes by the Law, they make them- 
felves Judges of the Law it felf, that is, of God the 
Judge of all, and of that Law by which they muft be 

XVIII. Reafin ; There is no other Se& of Chriflians 
under Heaven which hath fo many differences among 
themfelves, or have written fo many Books againft one 
another as the Papifts : And though many of them are 
of great importance, yea, fome are about the very Ef- 
fence or ConftitutiveHead of their Church,yet have they 
no handfomer way to palliate all by, than by faying that 
thefe are but Opinions, and no Articles of faith, and 
the Infallible Judge dare not decide them : No though 
it be diverdy of Expofitions of Gods own Word, yet 
Commentators ftill differ without any hope of a deci- 
flon, as if Gods Word were not to be believed, but were 
only the matter of uncertain Opinion , till the Pope 
and Council have expounded it, and no more Scripture 
is de fide than they expound. 

XIX. Reafon: Perjury is made the very Character 
of their Church, or the brand by which it is ftigma- 
tized •, As is vifible i,In the Trw 04th impofed on 
their Clergy , which whoever taketh he is immediately 
perjured : and 2. By their difobliging men from Oaths 
and Vpws 5 even the Subjects of Princes from their 
Oaths of Alkgiancc , whenever the Pope (hall excom- 

F 5 raunicatc 


municatc them, and give their Dominions to others, as 
is decreed 'Qtncil. Later, fub Innoc. 3. Can. 3, 

XX. Re*fon\ They are guilty of Idolatry in their 
ordinary Worfhip by the Mafs : while they worfhip 
Bread as their Lord God: Nor will it juftifie them to 
fay, that if they thought it to be Bread, they would 
not worfhip it : Any more than it would juftifie Julian 
to fay, that he would not worfhip the Sun, if he thought 
not that it was God : And they confefs, that if it prove 
to be ftill Bread, their Worfhip will prove Idolatry : 
and we defire no other proof. 

AnH I am not able to juftifie their fending God his 
Worfhip by aCrofs, Crucifix, or other Image, as a 
medium cult urn, from being a grofs Violation of the fe- 
cond Commandment : ( which they leave out ). 

X X I. Reafon : Their Religion greatly tendeth to 
Mortify Chriftianity, and turn it into a dead Image , 
by de/lroyingmuch of its life and power: 1, By be- 
friending Ignorance, and hiding the holy Scripture, for- 
bidding all the people to read them in a known tongue 
without a fpecial Iicenfe : blafpheming Gods Word, 
as if fo read, it had more tendency or likelihood to 
hurt men than to profit them, to damn them than to 
fave them ; when they will fay otherwife of all their 
own Vulgar poftils and fuch like writings. 

2. And by teaching the people a blind devotion, viz.. 
to pray in an unknown tongue, and to worfhip God by 
words not undcrfiood* 

3. And by making up a Religion much, if not far 
mofi, of external formalities^ and a multitude of cc re- 
monicsy and the opus opcratum of their various Sacra- 



> merits ^ As if God delighted in fuch adions as befit not 
the acceptance of a grave and fober man ; or as if 
Guilt and Sin would be wiped off , and charmed 
away into virtue andholinefs, by fuch corporeal mo- 
tions, fhews and words. 

XXII. Reafon : Their Religion , though it thus 
tend to gratifie the ungodly by deceitful remedies and 
hopes, yet is very uncomfortable to the godly. For, 
I. By it no man can know that he is a true believer, 
and not a child of Hell, ( much lefs that he lhall be 
faved : ) For they teach that no Divine can tell them 
what Articles are necelTary to be believed to falvation : 
But they muft be fo many as are fuited to every ones 
capacity, and means, during his life. And no man 
living can know that he underftandethand believeth as 
much as his capacity and means were in their kind fuf- 
ficient to : Nay, there is no man that hath not been 
culpably ignorant of fomewhat which he might have 

2. Mens. Sacramental receptions and comforts depend 
on the Intention of the Prieft, which no man knoweth. 

3-Almoft all Godly men muft expect the fire of 
Purgatory : and confequently none of them can be ra- 
tionally willing to dye : Becaufe this life is better than 
Purgatory - 3 and no man will defire to go from 
hence into the fire : And fo by making all men unwil- 
ling to dye , it deftroyeth a heavenly mind, and killeth 
faith, and hope, and love, and holy joy, and tcmpteth 
men to be worldlings, and to love this life better than 
the next. Yea, it tempteth men to be afraid of Mar- 
tyrdom, left (dying in Venial fins, as all do) they 
go to a Purgatory fire ? more terrible than Mar- 


I /*y 

XXIII. Rcafon : Their Do&rine is not only con- 
trary to many exprefs Texcs of Holy Scripture, but 
alfo contrary to it felf : One P,>pe and one Council 
having decreed one thing , and ano:hcr the clean 


XXIV. Re/tfon : All this evil is made more perni- 
cious, by that profeflfed Impenitence which is included 
in the conceit of their Churches Infallibility : For they 
that hold themfejves Infallible, do profefs never to Re- 
pent, pf any thing in which they fuppofe themfelves to 
be h. And as Repentance is the great evidence of the 
pardon of fin •, fo Impenitency is that mortal fign of an 
unpardoned foul , without which no fin doth qualifie 
the fmner to be Excommunicated by man, or damned 
by God .• And a fin materially lefs^ is more Mortal un- 
refemed of, than a greater truly lamented and for- 

X X V. Reafon : Every honeft godly Proteftant may 
b: asfure tha: Popery is falfe, as he is that he is him- 
{df fincere, and Loveth God, and is truly willing to 
obey him. And no man can turn Papift, without felf- 
contradi&ion, who is a true Chriftian, and an honeft 
man : For by turning Papift he confeffeth himfelf to 
be before a falfe-hearted hypocrite, who neither Loved 
God, norfincerely defired to obey him, nor was true to 
his Baptifmal Covenant. For it is a part of Popery to be- 
lieve that none are in a ftate of falvation , but the Sub- 
jelh of the Pope, or members of the Papal Church : 
And confequently that no others have true Faith, Re- 

penrance or Love to God : Or elfe that God is falfe in 
promiflng falvation , to all that have true Faith, Re- 
pentance and Love to God. All therefore that know 
their own hearts to be truly devoted to God, are fafe 
from Popery • And feeing it is agreed on both fides, 
that none can or ought to turn Papifts but ungodly hy- 
pocrites ( or Knaves ) no wonder if fuch are deluded 
by the mod palpable deceits, and forfaken of God whom 
they perfidioufly forfook. 

I will name you no more : If I make thefe, or any 
one of thefe good ( as I undertake to prove them all ), 
you will fee that I refufe not my felf to be a Papift with- 
out fufficient caufe, 

And yet by this charge you will fee that I am none 
of their extream adverfaries : I pafs by abundance of 
Doctrinal differences, wherein by many they are mod 
deeply charged : Not as Juftifying them againft all or 
moft fo charged on them , but i. As giving you thofe 
Reafons which moft move my felf ', and which I am 
moft able to make good, and leaving every one to his 
proper work : 2. And as one that have certainly found 
oat, that in many dotlrinals feeming to be the matter 
of our wideft difference, we are thought: by many to 
differ much more than we do ^ 1 . The difference lying 
moft in Words, and Logical Notion j, and various wayes 
of mens exprefling their conceptions : 2. Andtheani- 
mofity of men engaged in Parties and Intercfts againft 
each other, caullng moft to take ail in the worft fenfe, 
and to make each other feem far more erroneous than 
they are , and to turn differing names into da?nnable 
herefies: And 3. Few men having Will and Skill to ftate 
controverfies aright, and cut off miftaken feeming diffe- 
rences : 4. And few having bonefty and felf -deny at 


enough to incurr the cenfure of the ignorant Zealots of 
their own party, by feeming but impartial and juft to 
their advcrfaries. 

I mean in fuch points, as i. The Nature of Divine 
faith, Whether it be a perfwafion that I am pardoned, 
&c. 2. Of Certainty of falvation , 3. And Certainty 
of perfeverance, 4. Of San&ification, 5. Of Juftifica- 
tion, 6. Of Good works, 7. Of Merit, 8, Of Predefti- 
nation, 9. Of Providence and the Caufe of Sin : 10. Of 
Free-will, 11. Of Grace, 12. Of Imputation ofRigh- 
rcoufncfs, 1 3 . Of Univerfal Redemption, 14. Of Origi- 
nal Sin, and divers others : In all which I cannot juftifie 
them , but am fure that the difference is made com- 
monly to feem to be that which indeed it is not : In 
the true impartial ftating whereof Lad. Le Blanch^ 
hath begun to do the Chriftian Churches moil excellent 
fervice, worthy our great thanks, and his bearing all 
the Cenfures of the ignorant. 




The Firfi Charge made good againjl Tranfub* 
Jlantiation: In which Topery is proyed to 
be the Shame of Humane Nature i Con* 
trary to SEHSB , ^EJSON, 
SC^IfTH^E and T^JVh 
TION, or the judgement of the Antient 
and frefent Church ; devijed by Satan 
to expoje Qhrijltanity to the Scorn of 


The Fir ft Reafon to prove Tranfubftantiation falfe. 

R. fT^He Papifts Belief of Tranfubftantiation 

is, that There is a change made of the 

I whole fubftance of the Bread into the 

JL body ofChriftj and of the whole fub- 

fiance of Wine into his blood. Their opinion ( caUed 

their faith ) hath two parts : The firft is, thitThere is 

no more true Proper Bread and Wine after the words 

ofConfecration, Hoc eft Corpus meum. The fecond is, 

that There is the true proper Flejh and Blood of Jefus 

Chrift, under the fpecies ( as they call them) of 

Bread and Wine* 


It is the firftthat I fhall now prove falfe: And you 
muft not forget the ftate of 
Aqain. p. 3.^75. a. 5. ad 3. F*fo the Queftion , which is not, 
ntntjteontrsjerfum.fedejtde* whether Chrifts Body and 
aiauodfenfus nsn&mngtt. But f , t J ~> J 

doth not fenfe fay, Here is Bread Blood VC prefent ? But Whc- 

**T!\*l ther there remain any Bread 

and Wine ? 
Arg. I. If there remains Bread and Wine after the 
Confecration, then all the fenfes of all the found men in 
the world are deceived, or all mens perception of the fe 
fenfible things deceived, though there be due magni- 
tude, fite, diftance of the objed, a due abode, and a 
due medium and no depravation of the fenfe or intelled. 
But this Confequcnt is notoriously falfe, (as fhall be 
proved ) Therefore Popery is falfe. 

■ i.That all mens fenfe s perceive Bread and Wine , or 
all mens Intellects by their fenfes ) will not bedenyed. 
Not only Prottftants, but Greekj, Mahometans, Hea- 
thens, Papifts, all perfons perception by fenfe is here 
the fame : Therefore it is found fenfes or elfe there are 
?wne found in the world. 

2. It is not one fenfe, but all. The eye fceth Bread 
and Wine ; The hanft and mouth feel it . The palate 
tajleth it j The fmclling fenfe fmlkihmt Wine -, yea, 
and the ear hear ethit poured out, 

3. It is in due quantity, and not an undifcernable 
jit me. 

4. It is near the fenfe, and neither by too much di- 
ftance or nearnefs made infenfible. 

5. It hath a due abode, and is not made infenfible by 
hafly pafwg by. 

6. The air, and light, and all neceffary media of per- 
ception are prefent. So that there is nothing wanting 
to the fenfbility of the objed. 

P, And 


P. And how do you prove all or any of thefe ? For 
ought you know, the media may be undue ^ the magni- 
tude, fite, diftance, abode, may hot be what they feem 
to be j and Co you prove not what you fay. 

K. All that I am now faying, is, that *All men of 
found fenfe, in the world have thefe immediate clear 
perceptions : The InteHcB by fenfe perceiveth the object 
as quantitative, as near^ &c. This you dare not deny : 
So that if this perception be falfe, and here be no Bread 
and Wine, then Senfe or the Intellect difcerning by the 
means of fenfe, is deceived. 

P. I fay that the Senfescr Intellects perception are 

R. I prove that they are not deceived ; or at lead, 
that this kind of perception is the moft certain that man 
on earth is capable of, and is to be trufted to by all 
men, and disbelieved or contradicted by none. 

Reafon I. Becaufe that humane nature is fo formed, 
that the Intellect hath no other way of perceiving things 
fenfible , but as they are firft perceived by the fenfe, 
and by it tranfmitted to the Intellecl ( or made its ob- 
jects ) : And if about Spirits k hold not, that There is 
nothing in the lntitlell y which was not firft in the fenfe : 
yet about things fenfible, it doth undenyably hold : And 
alfo that the Jntellecl of it felf is not free to perceive 
things fenfible otherwife than as they are fenfe d, or 
not to perceive them •, but is naturally necejfitated to 
perceive them. So that it is a contradi&ion for a man 
to be a man, confifting of a reafon able foul, with fen- 
fitive faculties and a body , and yet not to be formed to 
judge of things fenfible as fenfe perceiveth them. 

P. Then mad men ceafe to be men , if they judge 

R. Mad men are your fitted presidents : But, t. I 
told you how mans nature is imie by God to judge of 

things ; 


things : I told you not that this nature may not be vi- 
tiated, and hindered from right aftion. Did I ever 
fay, that the eye may not bt blinded, or the underftand- 
ing diftraeted ? Blind men and mad men judge not ac- 
cording to the tendency of Nature, and therefore mif- 
judge. The Connexion of the Intellect to the fenfe is 
efTential to man as man •, but fo is not the foundnefs or 
right exercifeof his faculties, 

Reafon I 1. Hence I argue , that fenfation and the 
under landings perception thereby, is the fir ft perception 
of maiio foul, and all that follow are but the rational 
improvements of it, and therefore ever prefuppofe it : 
The natural order of the fouls apprehenfions is this, 
beyond all controverfie. Firft Senfe perceiveth things 
fenfwle , and the Imagination the Images of them. 
Next the Vnderftandmg by zfimple perception conceiv- 
cth of them as it findeth them in the imagination. 
Thirdly, then by this Thinking or Knowing, we per- 
ceive alfo our own Aft, that we do foThinl^ or Know. 
And then Fourthly, We compound our conceptions, and 
form organical notions, and fpin out conclufions from 
what we firft perceive. Now if the fir ft perceptions 
be uncertain or falfe , it mud needs follow , that all 
thofe following thoughts, and reafonings which do but 
improve them , are at leaft as uncertain and falfe, if 
not more. So that there can be no more cercainty in 
any of the Conclufions as fuch , than there is in the 
premifes and principles. Therefore if mans firft and 
mo ft natural necejfary perceptions arc falfe, all the 
following aftions or reafonings of his mind mud be no 
better. All being finally refolved into thefe perceptions 
hy fenfe, there is no Truih or Certainty in mans mind 
at all, if there be none in thefe. 

Reafon 1 1 L 


Reafon 1 1 1. Elfc you would infer, that God is not 
at all to be Believed^ and that there is no fuch thing as 
Divine Faith and Religion in Certainty in the world : 
And fo you would bring in , by unavoidable confe- 
quence, far worfe Impiety , and Jrreligioufnefs than 
Mahomet or Julian, or any Idolaters that I hear of 
on the earth. For you dire&ly will overthrow the 
Divine Veracity , or Truth of Gods Revelations , which 
is the Formal Objett of Faith, without which, it is no 

P. A heavy charge, if you can make it good. 

R. To make it good, do but firft obferve , i . That 
Gods Ejfential Will or mind is not in it [elf immedi- 
ately feen by man ♦, but known only by fome Re- 

2. That this Revelation is nothing but fome SIGNES : 
For there is nothing in the Univerfe of Beings, but 
GOD and CREATURES and the ACTS or Works 
of Creatures. Now it is not Gods oven Ejfence which is 
the Revelation in queftion. Therefore it muft be ei- 
ther A Creature ( or work of God J , or an Att or 
Work, of a Creature. As the voice on Mount Sinai, 
and that of Chrift at his baptifm and transfiguration, and 
the written Tables of Stone, &e. were either the works 
of God immediately, and fo created Signs of his mind ; 
or elfe the Atts of Angels, and fo Imperate Signs of his 
mind. Nor it is. not the or dinar inefs or extraordina- 
rinefs of the way of making thefe figns, which maketh 
them currant and true,or credible : For if God can make 
a Natural falfe fign, he can make a fupematuralfalfe 
one, for ought any mojtal man can prove. Only all 
the queftion is, Whether it be indeed a fign of the 
mind and will of God or not . ? Now the works of Na- 
ture are Gods Natural Signs, and his Natural objective 
Light and Law -, as the perception of them is the Sub- 



jetlive or Active Light and Law of Nature i Some- 
thing of God, thefe Natural figns do fignifie or reveal 
plainly , and feme things darkly : And fo it is with fiu- 
pernatural figns -, As the written Tables, the voice of 
an Angel, the words of an infpired Prophet or ./4/w- 
yr/<?, e£*<r. Now there is no other way for God to fpeak 
or reveal falfly, could he do it, but i . Either to make 
a falfie fign, naturally or fupernaturally, or 2. To de- 
termine mans fienfie or mind to a falfe perception. And 
if God can do this naturally , why not fiuper natu- 
rally f 

Nay, a fortiore mark how you teach the Infidel to 
inferr? 1. Gods Natural Revelations are Common, 
and his fiuper natural rare. 2. Gods Natural Revela- 
tions art moft certainly his own Alls : But how far a 
Voice or Book, frum a Spirit, may be the Act. of that 
Spirit or Angel as a free Agent , and how far that 
Agent is fallible v. r defect ible, we could not tell, if we 
had not farther Evidence of Gods owning it. There- 
fore if you make Gods own ordinary Natural Revela- 
tions or fignifications to be falfe, how will you be able 
to difprove the Infidel about the reft? 3. And then 
note, that our Cafe is yet lower and plainer than all 
this : For if the very Being of the Creatures, which is 
the Matter of thefe Signs be uncertain to us, and all 
our fenfes and minds deceived about it ; then we have no 
place for enquiry, Whether this Creature be any fign 
of the mind of God. As if the hearing of all men was 
deceived, that thought they heard that voice, [ This is 
my Beloved Son ~\ or Pauls, that thought he heard Chrift 
fpeak to hkn [ Saul, Saul, &c. ] or if their Eyes and 
Intellects were deceived, that thought they fiaw Chrifiv 
and his miracles -, or that think now that they read the 
Bible, and indeed there be nofuch thing as a Bible, no 
fuch words, &c . then there is no room to enquire what 


■(■Si ; 

ihzyfignifie: For nothing hath no ftgnific at ion. Truth 
and Gojdnefs are affections or modes of Being .- And if 
| we cannot by all our found fenfes know the Being of 
things, we can much lefs know that they are True or 
Good. Therefore all knowledge, and all faith, and all 
Religion is overthrown by your denyal of the truth 
of our Senfes and Intellects perception of things 

Reafon I V. And by this means you are not capable 

of being diluted with, nor any Controverfie between 

you and any others in the world, of being decided, 

! while you deny fenfe. For then you agree not with 

mankind in any one common principle. And they that 

agree in nothing, can difpute of nothing. For this is 

the firft principle : Eftvel non eft is firft to be agreed 

\ on, before we can difpute any farther of a fubftance. 

i What will you do to confute an adverfary, but drive 

him to deny a certain principle ? And can you drive 

him to deny a lower fundamental Principle , than the 

Being of a fubftance perceived by fenfe, yea, by all the 

found fenfes of all men in the world ? 

Reafn V. Yea, it is ipecially to be noted, that our 
difference is not only about the fpecies of a fenfible 
fubftance, but about the very fubftance it fe If in gen ere \ 
Whether all our fenfes perceive any fubftance at all, or 
nor. Suppofe the question were, Whether it be water 
or not, which all mens fenfes fee in Rivers ? If a Pa- 
pill would deny it tobew^r, doubtlefs hedenyed the 
agreeing judgement of all mens Intellect by fenfe. But 
if hefhouldalfo fay, It is no fubftance, which we call 
water or earth, This were to deny the firft Principle, 
and moft fundamental perception in nature. 
. Now that this is your cafe , is undenyable. For, 
i. You profefs, that Qorifts Body arid Blood are not 
fenfible there •, That it is not the quantity, Jhape, nuw- 

G ber 7 


he r, colour, fmell, weight, &c. of Chrifls Body and 
2?/<W which we perceive, and that thefe Accidents are 
not the Accidents of Chrifr. 2. And you believe that 
the Bread and Wine is gone, that is, changed into the 
body and blood of Chrift ^ fo that no part of their fub- 
fiance, matter or form is left. And you put no third 
fubftance under thefe Accidents in the (lead. So that 
you maintain, that it is the quantity of nothing, the 
figure of nothing, the colour, the weight, thtfeituation, 
the fmell, the number, eye. of nothing, which all mens 
Intellects by fenfe perceive. So that the Controverfie 
is, Whether it be any fubftance at all which by thofe ac- 
cidents we perceive ? And when we fee, handle, tafle, 
fmell it, you believe for fay you believe) that it is 
none > neither Bread or Wine, or any other : Now if 
by fenfe we cannot be fure of the very Being of a fub- 
ftance, we can be fure of nothing in the world. 

Reafon V J. Yea , it is to be noted , that though 
Brutes have no Intellects, yet their Senfe and Imagina- 
tion herein wholly agreeth with the common percepti- 
on of man : A Dog or a Moufe will eat the bread as 
common bread, and a Swine will drink the Wine as 
common Wine : and therefore have the fame perception 
of it as of common bread and wine • And fo their 
fenfes mull be all deceived as well as mans. And 
Brutes have as accurate perfed fenfes as men have, 
and fome much more. And meer natural operations 
are more certain and con ft ant ( as we fee by the worlds 
experience ) than meer Reafon and ^Argumentation. 
Birds and Beafts are conflant in their perceptions and 
cotirfe of adion, being not left to the power of 'Mutable 

Reafon VII. You hereby quite overthrow your own 
foundation, which is fetcht from the Concord of all 
your party, which you call all the Church : You think 


tnat zueneralLouncil could not agree to any thing as 
an Article of faith if it were not fuch • ( when it is but 
the Major Vote that agree ) j You fay that Tradition 
is Infallible , becaufe All the Church agreeth in it 7 
( wben it is perhaps but your Sell , which is a Minor 
fart ). But do you not overthrow all this, when you 
profefs, that All thefenfes of all the found men in the 
world, and all the fimple perceptions of their IntelUtts 
by fenfe , do agree , that there is fubftance, yea, de 
fpecie Bread zn&Wine after the Confecration ?' No one 
mans perception by fenfe df agreed in this, from the 
inftitution of the Sacrament to this day , that can be 
proved, or the leaft probability of it given. And if 
this Concord be no proof, much lefs is yours : For, 
i. The Intellect in Reafoning is more fallible than in 
its Immediate perception of things fenfed ( or perceiv- 
ed by fenfe). 2. Tours is but the Content offome men • 
but ours is the Confent of all mankind. Tours among 
your felves hath ofc in Councils a Minor part of dijfen- 
ters, who muft be overvoted by the reft : But our Cafe 
hath never one dijfenting fenfe or perception. 

Reafon VIII. By this denyal of fenfe, you over- 
throw the foundations of Humane Converfe : How can 
men make any fure Contracts , or perform any duty 
on a fure ground, if the Concordant fenfes of all the 
world be falfe ? Parents cannot be fure which are their 
own Children - 5 nor Children which are their own Pa- 
rents : Husbands cannot certainly know their own 
Wives from their neighbours. No Subjects can cer- 
tainly know their own Prince. No man can be fure, 
whether he buy or fell, receive money or pay it,(^-c„ 
No man can be fure that there is a Pope, or Prieft, or 
man in the world. 

Reafon IX. You feem to me to BUfpheme God, and 
to make him the greateft Deceiver of mankind , even 

G s in 

in his holy Worjlup : Whereas 6 od cannot lye •, It is tm- 

pojfible : And the Devil is the Father of lyes : And 
you make God to tell all the world ( as plainly as if 
words told them ) even by demon fir at ion to their fight, 

fmell,fceling, tafie, that, here is Bread und Wine, when 
there is none • yea, that it is at leaft fome fub fiance 
which they perceive, when it is none at all. 

Reafon X. You thus lain God to be Cruel to Man- 
kind, and that under pretence of Grace • Even to put 
fuch hard Conditions of falvation on man , which 
feem to us impoffible, to any but mad men, or thofe 
who by fa&ion have caft their minds into a dream. 
If thefe be Gods Conditions^ that no man fhall bzfaved, 
that doth not believe that all his fenfes, and all the fenfes 
of all the world, are deceived whea they perceive Bread 
and Wine, or fub fiance , many may take on them to be- 

• lieveit, but lew will believe it , and be faved ind-ed. 

• Reafon X I. Hereby you make the Gofpcl or New 

Covenant to be far harder ahd more rigorous than ei- 

' ther the Law of Mo fits, or the Law of Innoccncy ; For 
neither of thefe did damn men for believing the agree- 
ing fenfes of all mankind : P erf eft Obedience, to a 
pcriect. nature, was fit to be a delight. The burden- 
fome Ceremonies had no fuch In.pofibilities in them. 
None of them obliged men to renounce all their fenfes, 
and to come to Heaven by fohard a way. 

Reafon XII. You feem to me to Contradict Gods 
Law and terms of life, and to forge the clean contra- 
ry as his : He faith, He that comcth to Godmuft Believe 
that God u, &c. and He that btlicveth Jliall be faved, 
and he that believcth not jhall be damned : But you 
feem to me to fay in plain erfedr, [_ He that Believcth 
Gods Natural Revelations to all mens fenfes fliall be 
damned, and that believcth that the faid Revelations are 
falje^ maybe faved, cxieris.paril >l 


Reaf XIII. And what a thing by this do you make 
Gods Grace to be ? Whereas true Grace is the Repairer 
; and perfetler cf Nature, you make it to be the defer oyer 
and deceiver of Nature. The ufe of Grace according 
to your faith is to caufe men to believe that Gods natu- 
ral Revelations are falfc, and that all the fenfes of the 
world in this matter are deceived : Whereas a madman 
can believe this without Grace. 

Reaf. XIV. By this dodrine you abominably cor- 
rupt the Church with hypccnfie, while all that will have 
Communion with you, muft be forced to profefs that 
all mens fenfes are thus deceived : And can you think 
that really they can all believe it ? or rather your 
Church muft.be moftly made up of grofs hypocrites who 
falfly take on them to believe it when they do not. 

Reaf. XV. And by this means you make the Vnity 
of the Church to become a meer Impoffibility : For your 
condition of union is, that men all believe this among 
other Articles of your faith : And that man hath loft or 
vitiated his humaniiy who can believe and exped, that 
all Chrifiians in the world Jheuld ever believe that all 
the fenfes of all the world are thus deceived. You 
might as well fay, The Church fhall never have Unity 
till all Chriftians do believe that David or Chrifi was a 
Worm and no man, a door, a Vine, a thief, a Rock^, in 
proper fenfe • or we fhall have no unity till we renounce 
both our humanity and animality and the light and Law 
of God in Nature. And after this to cry up Vnity, 
and cry down Schifm, what abominable hypocrifie is it ? 

Reaf. XVI. And by this dodrine what bloody inhu- 
manity is become the brand or Charader of your 
Church ? When you decree ConciL Later, fib. Innoc. 
3. Can. 3. that all that will not thus renounce their 
fenfes, and give the lie to Gods natural revelations, fhall 
be excommunicated and utterly undone in this World, 

G 3 even 


even banifhed from all that they have, and from the Land 
of their Nativity -, Yea your Inqutntfon muft torture 
and burn them, and your Writ de hcretkts ccmburendts 
muft be ifiued out againil them, to fry them to death in 
flames, if they will not renounce the common fenfts of 

Reaf. XVII. And it even amazeth me to think what 
horrid Tyrants you would thus make all Cbriftian 
Princes ! When the faid Canon determineth that they 
fball be fir ft Excommunicate and then caft out of their 
Dominions, which fhall be given to others, and their 
fubjecls abfolvcd from their allegiance and fidelity, ex- 
cept they will exterminate all thefe as heretickj from 
their Dominions, who will not give the iye to all mens 
fenfes and to Gods natural Revelations. The plain 
Englifh is, <T> He fiiall 'not be the Lord of his own Do- 
minions who will have men to be his fubjetls, or fuch as 
will not renounce both their humanity and animality or 
fenfe. For to perceive fubfiances in genere & infpe- 
cieby finfe, and to believe or trufi the Common fenfes 
of all the World about things fcnfible, as being the 
fureft way that we have of perception, is as neceffary to 
a tJtfan as Ratiocination is. Choofe then O ye Princes 
of the Earth, whether you will be Papifis, and whether 
you will have no men to be your Sub.etts, even none that 
believe the fenfes of themfelves and all the world. 

Reaf. XVIII. Thus alfo your Idolatry exceedeth in 
abfurdity the Idolatry of all the Heathens elfe in the 
World : Even Canibals and the moft barbarous Nations 
upon Earth. For if they call men to Worfhip an 
Image, the Sun, the Moon, an Ox or an* Onion (of which 
the Egyptians are accufed) tky do but fay that fome 
fpiritual or celcfiial numen affixeth his operative pre- 
fence to this Creature : But they never make men fwear 
that there is no Image, or Sun or Moon or Ox or Onion 


left, but that the whole fubfiance of it is turned into 
God, or fomewhat elfe. Your Abfurdities tend to make 
the grofleft Idolatry feem comparatively to yours, a 
very fair and tolerable errour. 

Reaf. XIX. By thefe means you expofe Chriflianity 
to the fcornoi humane nature, and all the world. You 
teach Heathens, Mahometans and other Infidels to de- 
ride Chrift as we do Mahomet ; and to fay that a Chri- 
ftian Makith and Eateth his God, and his faith is a Be- 
lieving that Gods fufernatural Revelations are a lie 7 
and that God is like the Devil the great Deceiver of the 
world. Wo be to the world becaufe of offences, and 
wo be to him by whom offence cometh. 

Reaf, XX. Laftly by this means you are the grand 
pernicious hinderers of the Conversion of the Heathen 
and Infidel world : For you do as it were proclaim to 
them ; [Never turn Chrifiians till you will believe that 
Gods Natural Revelations are falfe, and that all mens 
fenfes in the world are deceived, in judging that there 
is Bread, Wine, or fenfible fub fiance after the words of 

Thefe are the mifchievous Confequents of your do- 
ctrine. But one benefit I confefs doth come by occafion 
of it • that it is eifier hereby to believe that there are 
Devils, when we fee how they can deceive men : and 
to believe the evil of fin, when we fee how it maketh 
men mad - 5 and to believe that there is a He 11, when we 
fee fuch a Hell already on Earth, as Learned Pompous 
Clergie men, that have ftudied to attain this malignant 
madnefs to decree to fry men in the flames and damn 
them to Hell, and give them no peace or quietnefs in the 
World, unlefs they will fa v, that Gods Natural Revela- 
tions are falfe, and that all mens fenfes are herein de- 
ceived, by God as the great deceiver of the World. 



The Papifts Anfwers to all this confuted. 

P. Y T is eafie to make any caufe feem odious, til] the 
1 accufationsareanfwered, which I (hall confident- 
ly do in the prefent cafe, 

L All this is but argument from fenfe : And fenfe 
muft vail to faith : Gods word muft be believed before 
our fenfes. 

R. It is eafie to cheat fools and children into a dream, 
with a found of empty words : To talk of fenfes vail* 
ing to faith and fuch like Canting, and infignificait 
words, may lerve turn with that fort of men. But fo- 
bermen will tell ycu that fenfe is in exerafe in order 
of Nature at leaft btfore Reafon or faith, and that we 
are Men and Animals before we are Chriftians : And 
that the truth and certainty of faith , pref iippofeth the 
Truth and Certainty of fenfe. Tell me elfe, if fenfe be 
falfe, how you know that there is a Man, or Pope, or 
Priefl in the World ? that there is a Book^ or Voice, or 
any being ? And what poffibility then have you of Be- 
lieving . ? 

P. Gods Revelation is furer than our fenfes ? 

R. This is the old fong over and over. Revelation 
without fenfg ( to you and ordinary Chriftians at 
leaft J is a contradiction. How know you that God 
hath any revelations ? If by preachers words, How know 
ycu that there is a preacher, or a word but by fenfe > 
If by books, How know you that there # a book^ but by 
fenfe ? 

P. 1 1. We may truft fenfe in all other things, where 


God doth not contradict it : But not in this One Cafe, 
becaufe God forbiddeth us. 

R. Say fo of your Church too, your Pope, Council or 
Traditions • that we may truft them in all cafes fave one 
or two, in which it is certain that they do lye ! And 
will not any man conclude, that he that can lye in one 
cafe, can lye in more ? If one Text of Gods word were 
falfe, and you would fay, You may believe all the reft 
fave that, how will you ever prove it ? For the for- 
mal objed of faith is gone, which is the Divine Vera- 
city • He that can lye once, can lye twice. So if all our 
fenfesbefalfe in this inftance, how fhall we know that 
they are ever true ? 

P. You may know it becaufe God faith it. 

R. i. Where doth God fay it ? 2. How fhall I be 
fure that he faith it ? If you fay, that it is written in 
Scripture ^ befides that there is no fuch word • How 
.fhall I know that all mens fenfes are not deceived in 
thinking that there is a Scripture , or fuch a word in 
it ? If you fay that the Council faith it, How fhall I 
know that there is a man or ever was a Council^ or a 
Book^ in the world ? The certainty of finclnfanj pre- 
fuppofeth the certainty of premifes and principles : And 
the certainty of faith and Reafoning, prefuppofeth the 
certainty of fenfe : And if you deny this, you deny all, 
and in vain plead for the reft. 

P. I muft believe my fenfes, where I have no reafou 
* to disbelieve them. But when God contradideth them, 
; I have reafon to disbelieve them. 

R. 1. You vainly fuppofe without proof that God 
contradideth them. So you may fay, I may or muft 
believe the Scripture or an Apoftle, Prophet or Miracle, 
except God contradict, them. But if God contradict 
them, he contradideth his own word or revelation : 
For we have no other from him, but by man : And if he 


contradict himfelf, or his own word, how can I believe 
him, or know which of his words it is thats true, when 
ohe is falfe ? fo here : His Natural Revelation is his 
fir ft, near eft , and mod fat isfatlory revelation : And if 
that be faid to be falfe by his fisfcr natural revelation, 
which fhall I believe, and why ? 

P. III. You cannot deny but God can deceive our 
fenfes. And therefore if he can, will you conclude 
againft all faith if once he do it ? 

R. i. This is not once ^ but as oft as God is wor- 
fhiped in your Mafs and our Sacrament. 

2. God can deceive us without a Lie, but not by a 
Lie. flhrift deceived the two Difciples, Luke 24. by 
carrying it as if he would have gone further ^ but not 
by faying that he. would go further. God can do that 
from which he knoweth that man will take occafwn of 
deceit. God can blind a mans eyes, or deflroy or cor- 
rupt his other fenfes ^ he can preient an object defective- 
ly, with unmeet mediums, diftance, (ice, arc. In this 
cafe he doth not give us a FALSE SIGN ^ nor 
doth he by the Nature of the Revelation oblige any 
man to believe it : Yea Nature fekh 3 that a man is not 
to Judge by a vitiated fenfe, or an unmeet medium, or 
a too diflant objett, or where the due qualification of 
the kni'i: or object are wanting : Nature there tells us 
that we are there to fuppofeor fufped that we are un- 
capable of certainty : But Nature oblige th us to believe 
found fenfes about duly qualified objt&s ^ and to take 
fenfe for found when all the fenfes of all the men in 
the wn-ld agree •, and the object to be a duly qualified 
object of fenfe, when all mens fenfes in the world fo 
p rcetve ir. For we have no way but by fenfe to know 
what is an obj eel of fenfe. 

3. The queftion is not what God can do by his 
fower, if he will j but what God vtiH do> and can will 


o do, in confiftency with his perfettion^ andjuft and 

nerciful Government of the World. And God in rca- 

;:ingusw«7 whofe Intellects are naturally to perceive 

hings fenfible by the means of the perception of fenfe, 

ioth naturally oblige man and nccejfitate him alfo, to 

rult his fenfes in fuch perception. And in Nature man 

lath no furer way of apprehenfion : Therefore if you 

could prove that ienfe is ordinarily fallible, and Gods 

revelations to it falfe, yet man were not only allowed 

but necejfitated to ufe and trufl it, as having no better 

furer way of apprehenfion : As among many knaves or 

lyars, I muft moft trull the hone fie ft and moft trufty, 

when I have no better to truft. If 1 am not fure that it 

is a Sun or Light that I fee, yet I am fure that I muft 

take my perception of it as a Sun or Light as it is • 

1 1 For God hath given me no better. If 1 am not fure 

that my fight, feeling, tafte, &c* are infallible . yet I 

am fure that I am made of God to ufe them • and that 

1 have no better fenfes, nor a better way to be certain 

. of their prope r objetts : fo that I muft take and truft 

them as they are, or ceafe to be a man. 

P. IV. thrifts Body and Blood are not fenfible ob- 
jects ^ and therefore fenfe is no proper judge whether 
they be prefenr. 

Ri This is one of yourgrofs kind of cheats, to change 
the queftion. We are not yet come to the queftion, 
Whether Chrifts Body and blood be here /And I grant you 
that fenfe is no judge of that, any more than whether 
an Angel be here. But the queftion is now only, Whe- 
ther Bread or Wine or fenfible fubftance be here ? And 
of this we have no natural way but by fenfe to judge. 

P. V. If God fhould fay to you [Tour fenfes are in 
this deceived, Here is no bread or wine or fcnftble fub- 
ftance 3 Would you not believe him ? 

X. i. Again 

R. i. Again I tell you, it is a fuppofuion not to be 
put : As if you ihould fay, [If God jlwuld fay , that part 
of the Gofpe I or word of God is falje, would yon not be- 
lieve him r J 2. If 1 know that God telleth me that 
fome difeafc orfalfe medium, &c, deceive me ox ano- 
ther in particular, I will believe him : But here it is 
fuppofed, i. That I have alTurance that it is God that 
tells me fo . 2. And that I have no aflurance that com- 
mon fenfe faith the contrary. But if the fenfe of all 
the world about a well fcituate object of fenfe agree, I 
will not take that to be Gods word which contradi&eth it, 
till I havcfo?ne evidence which is better and fironger than 
the agreeing fenfes of all the world to prove it to be fo. 
And what evidence muft that be ? I allure you femewhat 
greater than the authority of a beaftly ignorant murder- 
ing Pope, and his factious Council. 

P. VI. Cartefim giveth you an inftance of deception 
of fight : We think a fquare Tower of a Steeple to be 
round till we come neer it : And the water feemeth to 
us to move when it is the boat.* " 

R. Cartefim and you do feem to be Confederate, to 
put out the eye of nature, and tempt the world to Infide- 
lity, if not to Atheifm. 1. Nature tells us that a diftant 
Steeple or other objed, is not perfectly difcermble : 
and therefore Nature forbiddeth us to judge till we. 
come neerer. We fpeak only of ob efts duly fcituate and 
qualified. 2. The failing of the fight there is but Ne- 
gative : It difcerneth not the corners : but here you 
feign it to be pofitive. 3. As the errour is corrigible 
by nearer approach, fo alfo by the ufe of other fenfes. 
If a man feel the Tower that is fquare, he will infalli- 
bly perceive it. But if you could prove that this fquare 
Tower is noTower, no Stone, no Sub fiance at all, though 
all the world ihould judge otherwise that fee it at the 


meetefi diftance, and feel it with their hands, then you 
did fomething to the purpofe. 

So as to the moving water cr banks, i. Motion is not Co 
evident as fub fiance, 2. Though one fenfe, through the 
weaknefs of the bruin be inefficient, the Intellclb by 
the fume fenfe about 01 her objects, and by other fen fes 
can infallibly difcern what that one perceiveth nor. 
3. And if one mans eyes deceive him who is in the boat, 
ten thoufand mens eyes that ftand on the firm land^zv- 
ccive the truth : But in our cafe it is all the fenfes of all 
the world, in all ages, about the necrefl object, that 

P. VII. Sub fiance is not the proper objed of fenfe 7 

■ but only Accidents: We fee, feel, tafte, fmell the ac- 
cidents, but not the fubftances. 

R. 1 . If you can name fome notional fpeculator or 

I Word-maker that hath faid fo, you think you have au- 
thority to renounce humanity by it. Call it prope r or 
not-proper, fibftance is the certain object of fenfe as 
cloathed with its accidents. Quantity and the res 
quanta are not two things, but one : And he that feel- 
eth or feeth quantity, feeleth or feeth the rem quan- 
tam. He that feeth or feeleth fhape or figure, feeth or 

! feeleth the thing figured. He that fmelleth odor^ fmel- 
leth rem c dor at am ^ He that feeth Colour, feeth the 
rem coloratam. When to feel the fuperficies, you feel 
the fubftance. 

2. By this we fee how by words you will unman man- 
kind. Have ycu any way of perception of corporal fab- 

i fiances but by fenfe ? Do you know that there is any 
' Earth or Water, or any corporal f 11b fiance in the world, 

or not? If you do, tell us how you know it but by the 
! perception of fenfe prefenting it to the Intellect ? You 

know that you muft thm know it, or not at all. 

3. And thus ftill you would bring men with Scepti- 



cifm to Infidelity. You would teach men, that the^ 
that faw Chrift were not fure that they faw him or am 
fubftance at all, but only the accidents, called Quantity 
Shape, Colour, &c. They that faw Apoftles, Miracles 
Bibles, Councils, were not fure that they faw any mori 
than accidents, &c. 

P. VIII. They that faw Angels appearing to th-:rt 
like men, or the Holy Ghoft defcending on Chrift ir 
the fhape of a Dove, thought they faw Men and ; 
Dove : So Mofes Rod did feem a Serpent. But theii 
fenfes did deceive them. 

R* Their fenfes were not at all deceived : And if by 
rafh. judging they would go beyond fenfe, and wilfully 
deceive themfelves, it was their fault. Their fenfe faw 
the JJjape or liksnefs of a man and dove. The text faith, 
not that the. Holy Ghoft was a dove, but that it defend- 
ed in the likenefs of a Dove : and their fenfes perceived 
no more. And this was true. A man conlifteth of a 
foul and a body of flefh and blocd •. Did fenfe perceive 
any of this in the Angels? either, foul, flefh or blood ? 
or any fuch thing in the appearance of a dove ? If I 
fee your pi&ure or ftatue, is my fenfe deceived if I 
take it not for a living man ? If I fee it moved^ is my 
fenfe deceived if I take it not for any other than a mov- 
ing Image ? Nature doth not bind me to take every 
fimiie to be idem •, a corps for a man • an Image for the 
per [on. It will be foolifhnefs fo to take ir. But if this 
Angela or Dove, had come near to the fenfes, all the 
fenfes, of all forts of men, and they had feen, and felt, 
arid tafted, zn&pnelt, all that are the obje&s of thefe 
fenfes, and yet there had been indeed no vifible, ta&ible,; 
fenfible fubftance at all, this had been a deception of! 
the fenfes remedilefs. Chrift I am fure appealed to 
fenfe, to prove that he had flefh and blood and was not 
a meerfpirit. The fame I fay of Mofes Rod ; either it 


\9) ) 

,vas really a Serpent or not ^ If it was, then it was no 
deception to judge it fuch : If not, fenfe was not at all 
Received : For it perceived nothing but thefimilitude and 
motion, andthofe ( with the fubftance ) were certainly 
there. But if all mens fenfes, feeing, feeling, tailing, 
&c. had been deceived, and there had been indeed no 
Jhape of a Serpent, nor any fcnfible fiibfiance at all but 
.Accidents real without any fubftance, this had been in- 
deed a deception of theienfes. And if God fo fubvert 
mans nature, he will not bind him to do the things which 
belong to the nature of man to do. 

But by all this we may perceive, that there is no end 
• of Controverfies with you to be hoped for : For how 
is it poflible to bring any thing to a more fatisfying 
iftiie, than when the fenfes of all the world do as clearly 
perceive it, as any fenfible thing can be perceived ? If 
our difference were whether this be Paper, and thefe be 
Letters • or whether this be a Pen, a Table, yea or a fub- 
ftance, and I fhould appeal to the fenfe of all the 
World, and yet this will not ierve to decide the Con- 
troverfie ^ what end, or hope of ending can there be : I 
will fooner look for concord with a mad man, than 
with men that deny the fenfes of all the World. 


K96 ) 


The fecond Argument Again ft Tranfubftantiation : The 
Contradictions of it. 

R. Arg.2. (T^Od owneth not Contradi&ions (nor 
VJ can do ). The Papifts doctrine of 
Tranfubftantiation, or nullification of the whole fub- 
ftance of Bread and Wine, is contradictious : There- 
fore it is not owned by God. 

The Major I know no man that denyeth. 

The Contradictions arethefe. 

1. You feign many Accidents of no fubftance ; which 
is a grofs contradiction. For to be an Accident is 
efTentially Relative to a fubject or fubftance : And 
ejus ejfe efl ineffe. To be a Rather without a Son, or a 
Son without a Father, a Husband without a Wife, or 
a Wife without a Husband, &c. are contradictions : 
And fo it is to be an Accident of nothings or without 
a fab jell* 

Particularly, i. The quantity of nothing is a con- 
tradiction : We can meafure the Bread, and Wine : 
To be an inch in longitude, latitude or profundity, and 
yet to be no fubftance is a contradiction. To be ( as 
the Wine is ) a quart , a gallon of Nothing is a contra- 

2. So for number • we can number the wafers or 
pieces of Bread, and the Qtfs of W T ine : And to be 
twenty, forty , an hundred nothings y is a contradi- 

3 . So for the Weight , To be an ounce , a found y or ten 
pound; of nothings is a contradiction. 

4. So 

4» So for the figure or fliape : It is a contradicti- 
on to be a round nothings a fqttare nothings See. 

5. So is it to be a Jwcet nothing, a fharp nothing, 
an aufiere nothing, &c. as the W*#* is fancied by 

6. Or robe an odoriferous nothing: A rough or a 
fmooth nothing, &c 

7. Or to be a white nothing, or a tW nothing, or 
any coloured noting. The fame I may fay 01 fit e 7 
and of a multitude of Relations, &c. 

II. It is a contradiction, tor Nothing to have all 
thofe Real notable ejfecis, which it is certain that the 
confecrated Bread and Wine have. 

As, 1. That when a man or a beaft, is really vou- 
riflied by the Bread and H^fi and flejh and &/<W, and 
fpirits are made of it, ( as they may live by it many 
months, ) that thefe fhould be the effects of nothing, or 
made out of no fubflance by way of Nutrition, with- 
out a proper Creation. 

2. When the Confecrated Bread and Wine do part- 
ly turn to Excrements, Vrine, Dung and Spittle, that 
all the Excrements are nothings or #W* 0/ nothing 
without a tffvp C reat ^ on ^ * s a contradiction. 

3 . When the Wine fhall ( as it may do ) make a man 
I cr z. fv in e drunks, that he is made drunk Jay nothing 
I or no fubflance, when as that drunkennefi is effentially 
I the operation of the fpirits of the W/#* upon the fpirits 
! of him that drinks it, this alfo is a contradiction. And 
I God maketh not contradictions true. 

P. It is the plea of an Infidel to fay that God cannot 
do this or that. Will you limit the power of the 
Almighty ? Will ycu fay that God cannot make Quan- 
tity, quality, fce, eye without fubflance, becaufe we 
cannot? It is blafphemy to fay God cannor. 

H & God 

R* God can do All things that arc works ef Power : 
God can do nothing which is a work of Jmpotency, 
defective nefs, naughtinefs, or folly y or which are con- 
tradictions in themfelves. And when we fay God can- 
not, we do but fay either that God is Perfect and Al- 
mighty , or that the thing is Nothing, but a falfe name, 
and not capable of being any ones work. God cannot 
lye, becaufe he is perfeft and Almighty, and not be- 
caufe he wanteth power. God cannot make you to be 
a man and no man, a fub fiance and no fub fiance, in 
the fame fence, at the fame time : becaufe it is a con- 

But if this Argument did not hold, and it were no 
contradiction, for God to overturn his fetled courfe of 
Nature, I (hall (hew you next that we have other rea- 
fons enough to judge that he doth it not. If he 
Can make darknefs to give Light, and a clod to be 
to the World inftead of the Sun, without changing it, 
or a ftone to underftand and fpeak without changing 
it, yet that God doth none of this, both reafon and ex- 
perience prove. 





The Third Argument againflTranfubftantiation: front 
the certain falJJwod of their affertion of multitudes of 
Miracles in it, 

K. HpHat doctrine which afferteth a multitude of 
L falfe or feigned Miracles is falfe and not of 

God : But fuch is the do&rine of Tranfubftantiation 

E rg0 , 

I will i. Shew you what Miracles it afTerteth ; and 
2. Prove that they are feigned or falfe. 

I. It is a Miracle for Bread and Wine to be turned irn 
to no Bread and Wine, yea, into nothing -, and this by 
the fpeakjng of four Words. 

I I. It is a Miracle ( or Contradiction ) for the 
Bread and Wine to be turned into Chrifls Body and 
Blood, and yet neither the matter nor form of it- to be- 
come any of the matter of Chrifls body and blood. 

III. It is a Miracle, ( or a contradiction rather as 
aforefaid ) for the Accidents to be the Accidents of i\ft- 
thing, or no fub fiance -, to be the quantity of Nothing, 
the Jhape, the number of nothing, the colour j favour, fme 11 
of nothing, and fo of all the reft. 

I V. It is a Miracle to have all the found fenfes of all 
forts of men in the world fo deceived herein, as to per* 
ceive bread, wine and fub fiance, if there be none. 

V. It is a Miracle to have the fenfes of Mice and 
Rats, and Dogs and other Brutes alfo deceived when 
they eat and drink ir. 

V I. It is a Miracle ( or contradiction ) to have 
nothing without a Creation, to become excrements : ot 
elfe thofe excrements to be nothing alfo : And the 

H 2 Accidents 


Accidents of all thofe excrements to be the Accidents 
of Nothing* 

VII. It is a Miracle to be nouri^ed by Nothing : 
( For you fay, that it is not ftmfls body and blood that 
nourifheth the rlefh. ) To have Hefh and blood made of 
nothing, is a creation. 

VIII. It is a Miracle to be drunt^whh nothings 
when xhtWine is annihilated or gone, and fee met h to 
be it that caufeth the effe& : Yea, for Beaft or man 
to be fo drunk. 

I X. It is a Miracle ( or contradiction ) for Chrift to 
eat his own body ( as the Papifts hold he did )• and yet 
it was his Whole Body which did eat his body, and yet he 
had but one body. 

X. It was a Miracle ( or contradiction ) for Chrifts 
entire body to be nourifhed by that eaten body, and that 
the eaten body turned into the fubftance of his eating 
body : And yet all was but one. 

. XL It was a Miracle that Chrifts Bate n body being 
not dead but living with a humane foul , fhould be 
broken and eaten by him and his difciples, and yet feel 
no pain by it. 

XII. It was a Miracle that his whole body was on 
the Crofs h and yet \ art of it in the difciples bellies at 
that time ■> or at leaft before that eaten by them. 

XIII. It was a Miracle ( or contradiction ) that 
Chrifts eaten body now nourifheth not the fiefh of any 
man •, and yet did nourifh the flefh of the difciples be- 
fore his death. Or if it did not nourifh them, it was a 
Miracle that what they eat and drank then did not nou- 
rifh the m, ( or Chrift what he eat and drank ). 

XIV. It was a Miracle that the whole body of 
Chrift fhould arife and live, and afcend to Heaven, when 
the difciplej had eaten it. 



» X V. It is a Miracle that every Receiver eateth the 
whole body ofChrift, and not a part, and yet that he 
hath but one body j or that they eat each a part with- 
out dividing him. 

XVI. It is a Miracle that as foon as the fpecies of 
Bread and Wine perifh or ceafe in the Eater, Chrifts 
body and blood ceafeth to be in him, and this without 
his detriment. 

XVII. It is a Miracle that there is fuch a local di- 
ftauce between the confecrated bread and wine all over 
the world ■ and yet no fuchdiftance between the parts of 
Chrifts body, and yet that bread to be his body, 

XVIII. It is a Miracle that bread and wine is An- 
nihilated or ceafe every Mafs, and yet that the quanti- 
ty of corporeal matter in the whole world is no whit 
diminifhed : or elfe that thofe four words can fo anni- 
hilate and diminifh the matter of the world. 

XIX. It is a Miracle that Chrifts body and blood 
increafe not, when fo many millions ofparcells of bread 
and wine are turned into it. 

XX. It is a Miracle that Chrifts body and blood is 
not diminifhed, when by the Corruption of the fpecies 
of bread <*nd wine, it vanifheth away. 

XXI. It is a Miracle that Chrifts body and blood 
fhould be fo received into the bowels of a wicked man, 
and yet not be any way defiled by his (in, nor by his 
bodily uncleannefs. 

XXII. It is a Miracle that a Raker difpofitively , and 
a Prieft effectually can make his own God, and eat him 
when they have done. 

X X 1 1 1. It is a Miracle that when Worms are 
bred of that which was bread and wine, thefe worms are 
really generated of nothings created • f or if as fome 
fay, the bread and wine do fubftantially return again, 
and breed them, that is another, a double miracle. ) 



XXIV. And it is a Miracle that the Corporeal 
matter of the world fhould by thefe Worms be daily in- 
creafed, out of nothing, or out of meer accidents that 
have no fubftance. 

XXV. It is a Miracle that men may be poyfoned 
by the Sacramental Elements as ingredients in the mix- 
ture, and yet that they are no fubftance. 

XXVI. It is a Miracle or Contradidion,that when 
flejh and blood ( formally fuch ) enter not into the King- 
dom of God, but Glorified bodies are all fpiritual bo- 
dies ( though not Spirits ), and therefore not fiejh and 
blood : Yet Chrifts body in the Sacrament fhould be 
truly and properly fiejl) and blood , and yet the fame 
with his glorified body ( which is not flefh and 
Wood : ) which is the Papifts doftrine j and the bread 
turned into fLchflefh. 

XXVII. It is a Miracle that the fame Body which 
in Heaven is brighter in Glory than the Sun, and exalt- 
ed above Angels, fhould yet fhew no figns of Glory on 
the Altar , in the Cup, in the hand, mouth or beliy of him 
that taketh it h but all its Glory be fo hid. 

XXVIII. It is a Miracle ( or Contradiction ) that 
Chrifts Humiliation ftiouldbe paft, and his whole Body 
Glorified, and yet that to be torn with the teech of a 
wicked man, to be eaten by Mice, Rats or Dogs, to go 
into the filthy guts, to be trodden in the dirt, fhould be 
neither painful, nor any diminution of the Glory of 
that fame body. Indeed his body on the Crofs might 
be broken, and his blood fpilt and trodden on, becaufe 
he was a facririce for fin ; and it was the time of his Vo- 
luntary Humiliation : But now for the fuffering of 
deaih he is crowned with Glory and Honour , Hcb. 

XXIX. It is a Miracle that the Living Body of our 
Glorified Redeemer fhould give no evidence or fign of 

life : 

life ; neither ftir, nor fpeak, nor have breath , pulfe, 
warmth, or other property of life appearing. 

XXX, It is a Miracle, at lead, thu/lejlj fhould have 
none of the common notes or properties of fle/h, not 
to be made of food, of blood and chyme, not to con- 
fill of the fibra which fleih confifteth of - y not to 
have the colour, tafte, odour or other fuch accidents of 
flefh : And that Blood fhould have none of thefe noti- 
fying accidents of blood. 

XXXI. It is a Miracle or Contradiction , that 
Chrifis FleJJ} was Broken before it was broken , facri- 
ficed before it was facrificed, I mean really broken and 
facrificed at his Supper, when yet he was whole and 
not really facrificed till he was nailed to the Crofs. And 
fo that his blood was really and properly fhed in his 
Supper, and yet no skin broken, nor his blood really 
fhed till his fide was pierced on the Crofs. And that 
he that was but once offered and Jacnficcd, fhould yet be 
offered and facrificed once on one day, and another 
time on another day. 

Here are one and thirty Miracles or Contradictions : 
Let us hear fome of the Aggravations of them, as wor- 
thy to be confidered. 

I. It is a Miracle of thefe Miracles, that there fhould 
be as many Miracle workers asPriefts in the world : 
How many thoufand are they in France alone ? And fo 
in many other Countreys. Whereas in Cbrifts own time, 
they were comparatively but few. 

I I. That the Pope or any Prelate can make a Mi- 
racle worker when he pi eafe, yea, a thoufand - y as if the 
Holy Ghoft were at his will. 

III. It is a Miracle of thefe Miracles that a Simonift 
who buyeth the Priefthood with money, doth buy the 
Holy Ghoft to work Miracles for that money, which 
Simon Metgm was condemned for thinking poffible. 

H* For 

( 104; 

For the Papifts hold, that the Confecration of a Simoni- 
a.cal Prieft traniubftantiateth.' 

IV. It is a Miracle that all this power of Miracles 
fhould be given to flagitious wicked men ^ Adulterers, 
Murderers, Drunkards, &c. 

V. It is a Miracle that all thefe men can work Mira- 
cles at their own will an'dfleafure^ at any hour : where- 
as the Apoflles had not the Spirit at command, and 
could not do it when they would. 

VI. It is a Miracle that Miracles fhould be as com- 
mon as Maffes, or the Euchariftical worshipping of 
God i ' not only on every Lords Pay in all Church-af- 
femblies , but any day or hour elfe in the Week, 
And fo Miracles be as ordinary almoft as to eat and 

V 1 1. It is a Miracle that every wicked Prieft fhould 
do fo many Aliracles in one , and fo many more in 
number than Chriji him f elf did, in the fame proporti- 
on of time, as far as the Hiftory of the Gofpel telleth 
us : Chrift is quite exceeded by them all. 

V 1 1 1« It is a Miracle that every wicked Prieft can 
work all thefe Miracles fo eafly y as with the carelefs 
faying over four words : When the j4pofllcs could not 
cait out fome Devils, or work fome Miracles, and fome 
could not be done but by f aft ing and payer. 

I X. It is a Miracle that every Prieft can work all 
thefe Miracles upon an unbeliever or a wicked man : 
For to fuch they fay, it is the real fleft and blood of 
(jhrifiy and no bread or wine ^ And the fenfes of all 
thefe wickgd men are deceived. Whereas Chtift him- 
felf could not do any great miraculous w or i^among fome 
where he came, becaufe of their unbelief 

X. It is a Miracle that Cod and the Trie ft fhould do 
thefe forefaid Miracles on Mice and Rats and other 
fcafts, by deceiving their fenfes, which we find not 


that Chrift ever did : or that God fhould feed them with 
the miraculous accidents aforefaid. 

X I. It is a Miracle of thefe Miracles that the Prieft 
can thus eafily work Miracles not only on other crea- 
tures, but on the glorified body of Qforifi himfelf, ( by 
the forefaid changes, eH. ) 

XII. Ic is a Miracle, that when Chrift wrought his 
Miracles ufually before a far fmaller number, thefe 
Priefts work Miracles thus before or on the fenfes of all 
the men in the world that will be prefent at the Mafs ^ 
for all their fenfes are deceived. 

XIII. It is a Miracle that the Aballines, Armeni- 
ans, Greeks, Protectants, yea, 

any that they call Schifma- nd.Aquw. 3.^.82. a.j.c. 
ticks, and Hereticks, who do 

not intend to work any Miracle, nor believe Tranfub- 
ftantiation,do yet work Miracles in each Sacramental ad- 
ministration of the Eucharift , not only without their 
knowledge, but contrary to their belief, and againfi their 
wills : For they fay, that even fuch mens confecration 
is effectual. 

XIV. Either their Priefts confecration worketh all 
thefe Miracles, when they 

intend it not, fas if they ?'U.^quin.^.q.6^.a. 9 . 
fpeak the words in jeaft or 

fcorn, or in Infidelity, ) or only when they intend it. 
If the firft be faid, it is a Miracle of Miracles, that any 
Prieft can work fo many and great Miracles by a jeaft 

or fcorn —If not, then all the bufinefs is come 

to nothing, and no one but the Prieft knoweth whether 
there be any fuch Miracle at all, and whether ever he 
eat the flefli of Chrift : And fo it will be in the power of 
the Prieft to deceive and damn all the people, according 
to the Papifts etfpofition of Chrifts words, Joh.6. Except 
ye eat the fie fh of the Son of man and drink his bloody you 
'have no life in yon* X V. 


X V. Either a malicious intention te a wrong end will 
be eifc&ual in Confeeration, or not. If not, none but 
the Prieft knoweth that there is auy body and blood of 
Chrift, or that ever he received any : Becaufe none 
knoweth though the Prieft intend Confeeration, whe- 
ther he intend it to a right end. But if a wicked end 
will ferve ( as I think mod of them hold ) the Miracle 
may be great and fad. For any Roguifh drunken mali- 
cious Prieft may undo a Baker or Vintner at his plea- 
fure, and by four words deprive him of all his Bread 
and Wine : Yea, he might nullifie all ihe Bread and 
Wine in theCYry, and fo either make a famine at his 
pleafure, or elfe make whole Families and Cities live ftill 
and be nourifhed without any fubftance by bare Acci- 
dents, which would be a Miracle indeed. 

If the Prieft can by confeeration change only a con* 
venient quantity of bread and wine , then all that is 
ever much is bread and wine after confeeration. If 
otherwife, why may he not change all the bread and 
wins in the Shop or Cellar where hecometh, intending 
confeeration to an ill end ? 

If he can do it only on the Altar , then want of an 
Altar would fruftrate the effed: ( which they hold 
not ). But if he can do it without an Altar he may do 
it in the Shop and Cellar, 

If he can do it only on the bread and wine prefent, 
how near rnuft it be ? Then the words will work at fo 
many yards diftance, and not at fo many. Or if he can- 
not do it out of fight , a blind Prieft cannot doit. But 
if he can do it on that which is abfent , we may fear 
left in an anger be may take away all the bread and 
wine in the Land ^ at leaft in a frolick to try his 



XVI. And it is fonr.e aggravaion of thefe manifold 
Miracles that a Degraded 

Trie ft can do them : Because v& Aquw. 3. ? . 82. a. 2. 
they follow the indelible Cha- 
racter : And fo he that hath. once made a Miracle- 
I worker, cannot take away his power again, nor his fin 
lofe his power* Is not this a marvellous power of Mi- 
racles, which becometh like a nature to them , as the 
power of fpeaking is ? 

XVII. Yet is this Miracle-working-power more 
miraculous, in that a mans own unwillwgnefs , or Re- 
pentance ot his Calling cannot hinder the Miracle if he 
do but fpeak four words, frnfent it fe/f is not necef- 
fary to it : Let a man Repent that ever he was a Trie ft y 
and profefs that he continued in that Calling againft 
his will, yea, let him write as I now do again ft Tr an- 
fubftantiation, yet all this will not hinder his next Con- 
fecration from working all the forefaid Miracles. 

XVIII. It is miraculous that if you keep a confe- 
crated Wafer never fo long , if you ufe it never fo 
courfly, if you ( as he did who occafioned the conver- 
fion of Mr. Anthony Egan a late Injh Prieft ) pawn it 
at an Ale-houfe for thirty (hillings •, if you lay it down 
for a flake at Cards or Dice, &c. it will not ceafe to 
be Chriftsflejh ( and fo by his blood, ) nor ever becomes 
bread, or any other fubftance till it corrupt : And yet 
in a mans ftomach it ceafeth to be Chrifts body, as na- 
tural heat corrupteth it by conco&ion ; And yet it is 
not Chrifts flejh that is concocted. 

XIX. It is a Miracle of this Miracle which Aquino* 
and others afTert, that the Bread and Wine are not An- 
nihilated , but wholly turned into Chrifts body and 
blood • and yet, as Fafquez, faith , It is not that the 
matter of bread begins to be under the form of Qirifts 
body ( as Dnrandu* hdd.) Saith Veron Reg. fid. cap. 5. 

I This 


This Tranfidft an tiat ion is neither a change nor a pro~ 
duchion of any thing j but it is a Relation of cyder be- 
tween the fukftance that doth defift to be, and that 
into which it doth defift. And yet faiih r.he Concil. 
Trident, There is a change made of the whole fub- 
fiance into, &c. 

XX. Laftly, It is a Miracle that all thefe Miracles 
fhould be done fo as not to appear to the fenfes of 
any man living, either to Convert Unbelievers or Con- 
firm the faithful : So that millions of thefe Miracles are 
fun and not feen » the Pried, and A&ion, and Acci- 
dents are fcen, but no Miracle fcen by any. vSo that 
Aminos concludeth 3. q. 76. a % 7, [Though Chrift be 
exifcent in this Sacrament per median- ptbftantia , yet 
neither bodily eyes, nor our Intellects can fee him, but 
by faith: no nor the IztclU'il oj an Angel can fee him 
fecundum fua naturalia 5 nor do Devils fee him but by 
faith -, nor the blefied, but in the Divine EfTence ,~] 

All thefe make thefe Miracles far more miraculous 
than the railing of Lazarus from the dead. 

WHether all thefe are Miracles, ormoftormany 
of them Contradictions , and therefore Impof- 
fibilities, I make no great matter of at this time. I 
think it utterly needlefs to add any more to what is faid 
in anfwer to fuch fayings as Aquinas ( 3. q. 75. 
&' 76.) and other Schoolmen, that [The fenfes arc not 
deceived, bee aujc there are the Accidents, and the Jn- 
telleti is by faith prefcrved from deception : that the 
remaining accidents are in quantirate dimenliva quail 
in fubjefto : that thefe Accidents can change an cx- 
trinfick^body, ean be corrupted, can generate Worms, 
can nourifti, can be broken, eVc. ] I or ail this at lead 
corifefTcth, that its all done by Miracle ; ( Though I 



will fay, i . That they could fcarce have chofen a more 
unhappy pro-fubje& of Accidents than Quantity, nor 
have given more unhappy reafons for it than Aquinas 
doth q. 77. a. 2. c. 1. Becaufe the fen fe perceiveth 
that it is Aliquid quantum, that is coloured, 2, Be- 
caufe Quantity is the frfi difpofnion of matter , &c. 
For this includeth matter : and Aliquid quantum is a 
word that giveth away his Caufe : And no Accident 
is more the fame with its fubjeft than Quantity , or 
moles extenfiva. 2. And he will be long before he 
will make or prove mans nature to be fuch , as that 
his Intellect can judge of fubftances by Believing, as 
incomplex objects, before it have perceived them by 
fenfeand imagination. When we fee, tafte, fmell, feel, 
hear them, the Intellect will fuddenly and neceflarily 
have fome fpecics or perception of the Thing , before 
it come Logically to difpute from e xtrmfick^ media of 
Teftimony , What this thing is in a fecond notion. 
And our queftion is, Whether the Intellect: in thU 
firft Perception be deceived, or not ? If you difcharge 
the Intellect from perceiving fubftances prefently , 
before it know them by fecond notions or Argument, 
you will make man quite another thing , than every 
hour and a&ion tells us he is : But what will not a man 
fay, when he fets himfelf only to ftudy what to fay for 
the making good of his undertaken Caufe ? 

But my next work is to prove the Fallhood of thefe 
pretended Miracles. 


( no; 


The Minor proved, viz. That thefe Miracles are 


THat thefe are all but feigned Miracles, I thus prove. 
I. Becaufe the holy Scriptures do plainly deny 
fuch an ordinarinefs or commonnefs of the gift of Mi- 
racles, i Cor. 12. 8, 9, io, 1 1. £ To one is given by the 
fpirit the word of Wifdom^ to another the word of Know- 
ledge by the fame fpirit, to another faith by the Jame 
fpirit, to another the gifts of healing by the fame fpi- 
rit y to another the working of miracles, &c. But all 
thefe worketh that one and the ft If fame fpirit • divi- 
ding to every man fever ally as he wilL 28, 29. tAnd 
God hath fet fome in the Church, firfi Apofiles } fecon- 
darily Prophets, thirdly Teachers, after that miracles, 
then gifts of healing, helps, Governments, diver fities of 
tongues : Are all Apo files I are all Prophets ? are all 
Teachers ? are all workers of Miracles, \ 

Here it is mod exprefly told us, that working Mi- 
racles is a peculiar gift of fome, and even in thofe 
times not common to all that were Priefts. But the 
Papifts make it common to every Prieft, though a com- 
mon Adulterer, Drunkard, Murderer or Heretick ^ no 
one Prieft in the world is without it. 

1 1. Though fome few that were workers of iniquity 
might have fome fuch gifrs, <sJP{atth. 7. Yet that was 
fo rare, that Nature it felf taught men to judge Mira- 
cles to be figns of divine approbation ; fo that Nico- 
demm thence argueth, Joh. 3.2. No man could do thefe 
Miracles that thou dofi except God be With him. And 



he man Joh. 9.31. God heareth not (inner s, but if any 
man be a Worfnipper of God and doth his will, him he 
heareth. And the people, verf. 16. How can a man 
that is a finner do fuch Miracles ? And it was Chrifts 
own proof that he was of God, and his Gofpel true - y 
and therefore to Blafpheam his Miracles , by afcribing 
them to the Devil, was the unpardonable Blafyhemy 
of the Holy Ghoft : And to deny Miracles to be a fign 
of Gods atteftation is to fubvert all Chriftianity. A ft. 
2. 22. Jefui of Nazareth a man approved of God among 
you by miracles, wonders and figns which Cjod did by 
him in the midfi of you — Joh. 5. 36. The fame works 
that I do bear witnefs of me that the Father hath fent 
me. Joh. 10. 25, 37, 38. The works that I do in my 

Fathers name, they bear witnefs of me Jf / 

do not the works of my Father, believe me not : But if I 
do, though ye believe not me, believe the works, that ye 
may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I 
in him* 

Joh. 14. 1 1. Believe me for the very works fakg. 

Joh. 15.24. If 1 had not done among them the works 
that no other man did, they had not had fin* 

This alfo was Pauls proof of his Apoftlefhip, yea 
and of the truth of all the Apoftles 
do&rine : Heb. 2. 5, 4. God alfo bearing 2 cor. 12. 12. 
them witnefs both with figns and wonders, AftTi'.V 9 ' 
and divers Miracles, and gifts of the &I5- 1 -- 
Holy Ghoft, according to his own Will. 

Therefore that Doctrine is unlike to be 
true, which tells us that every wicked ^ Iatth - 21 - 1 ^ 
Trie ft in the world, though a Simonift, or 
an enemy of (fhrift and Godlinefi, and drown din all 
Vice, is fuch a ermftant miracle -worker : When God 
hateth all the workers of iniquity, Pfal. 5.5. 

III. But 


III. Eut though this Reafon be but probable, this 
following is demon ftrative to a believer. 

That dotlrine which makcth every Ignorant wicked or 
Heretical Trie ft in the world, far toexcell the Prophets, 
Apoftles, and Qirift hiwfclf, in the Greatnefs, Number 
and facility of Miracles, is falfe : But fuch is this 
doBrinc of Tranfubftantiation - — 

I know that Chrift telleth his Apoftles^GV^ e r works 
than thefe fiall ye do. ~\ But i . There are Greater 
-works ( fuch as the converting of greater numbers-ill the 
World ) which are not Greater Miracles : 2. And 
what was promifed to the Apoftles, as to Miracles, was 
not promifed to every Trie ft in the world. 

I appeal to the Consciences of fober Christians, whe- 
ther it found not as ah arrogant if not blafpheamous 
fpeech, to fay that Chrift and his Apoftles did fewer and 
[mailer miracles ( proportionable to their time ) than 
every Trie ft. 

And as to the Minor, it is foon proved in its parts. 

1. As to the Greatne§ of the Miracles \ thofe of 
Chrift were exceeding Great : efpecially his Raifwg 
Lazarus, and his own Refurrelhion, his turning water 
'into Wine, and his feeding thoufands with a little 

food But he that will examine Tranfibftantia- 

tion as afore-defcribed, (hall find it to have more that 
is contrary to nature, than all thefe, by far. The fubftance 
of the dead body of Chrift or Lazarus did not vanish, 
but remained to be the organized Recipient' matter of 
the re-entring foul. There were no Accident's without 
fubftances, or other fuch things as are mentioned be- 
•fore. The multiplying of food, could at the inoft be 
tut 3.' new Creation •, But it was real food, and none of 
the contradictions or abfurdities before recited. The 
turning of Water into Wine was like ft this in the Papifts 
opinion - ? but indeed little like it. lor the matter of the 


water there remained, with the firm of Wine, and fa 
became the Matter of Wine, and did not vanijh i And 
here was real Wi?ie, and real fub fiance, and not Ac- 
cidents without fubjlances, deceiving all the fenfes or 
JntelleElual perceptions. The fame may be faid of the 
miracles cf the Apoftles, compared with Tranfubftan- 

2. And as to the Number, though Chuifts and his 
Apoftles Miracles Were very many, yet there is no 
Scripture-evidence that they were for number compa- 
rable ( for fo much time) to every Priefls. Chriffa 
miracles are fet down in the facred hiftory in fttch or- 
der, and the Evangelifts fo much agree in reciting the 
fame miracles, that ( though $t. John fay ) the world 

could not contain the Books that foouldbe written 

yet we find no probability that they were neer fo com- 

, mon as Majfes are * when in feveral places where Chrift 
came, they that looked after Miracles and Signs were 
denyed them, and had none, but were put off to the fign 
of the Prophet Jonah, &c. Yea Herod and Pilate were 
in this denyed their defired fatisfattion • and they that 
call to him for a miracle on the Crofs. Andfo of the 
Apoftles. But every Prieft doth his miracles as eft at 
there is a Mafs, though every day 4 

3. And as to the Facility I faid before^that [in his 
own (Country, among his own kjndred, he could do no 
mighty work^fave that he layed his hands on a few fick^ 

folk^and healed them, and he marvelled at their unbelief \ 
Mark 6. 4, 5, 6. And he fome time groaned in Jpirit 9 
and wept, fas for Lazarus), And the Difciples could not 
cafl out a Devil , Mar. 9. 18^28. Luk.9.40* It was 
not to be dune but by fafttng and prayer. Its like Paul 
would have cured Trophimm if he could, when he left 
him fick* And as holy men fpakc, not when, nor as 
they pleafed, but when and as they wtre infpired by the 

I Hty 


Holy Ghoft : fo did they work^ miracles, not arbitrarily, 
but at fuch times and in fuch manner as the fpirit moved 

But any the moft wicked Prieft can do it at his plea- 
fure, any hour of the day : and that but by reciting Hoc 
eft corpus me urn. Many other difparities appear in what 
is faid before. 

IV. The End of the Gift of Miracles confuteth the 
feigned Miracles of Tranfubftantiation. The End of 
Chrifts gift was to prove him to be of God ( as is afore- 
fhewed ) and to prove his Apo files to he of God, and to 
confirm the Gofpel which they Preached, Mar. 16. 
17, 1 8, 19, 20. Heb. 2. 4. As the gift of Tongues fo 
other wonders, were to convince unbeliever s y j Cor. 14. 
AA. 2. &4. 30. & 5. 12. &7. 36. & 8. 13. & 14.3. 
2 Cor. 12. 12. 

But the miracles of Tranfubftantiation are known to 
no unbeliever •, nor to any one in the world by any fenfe ^ 
and have no fuch End, but a contrary effed. 

The Apoftles who were to convert the world, and 
next Chrift, to do the greateft good, were therefore to do 
the greateft miracks : And it was their argument for 
Chrift, Joh.7. 31* When fimft cometh mil he do more 
miracles than thefe which this man hath done . ? Yet now 
every ignorant Prieft pretendeth to far more, who doth 
but tempt Infidels to deride Chriftianity by the pretence ; 
as we do Mahometanifm, for Mahomet s fport pretended 
With the Moon, and other fuch delirations. 

V. God is not to be faid to work Miracles and crofs 
the eftablifhed courfe of nature without proof. But 
thefe pretended Miracles have no proof No man liv- 
ing perceiveth them by fenfe. And that God telleth us 
of no fuch things by fupernatural Revelation, fhall be 
further (hewed anon : In the mean time, it may fatisfie 



us, that they bring us no proof, but their own affirma- 
tion, which they require us to believe. 

VI. The Matter of thefe pretended Miracles is ex- 
prefly contradicted by the W6rd of God, as fhall be 
proved in the next Chapter. 

VII. Adhominem • Do not the Papifts forget them- 
felves here, and contradict 

their Other fuppofltions ? So they do by forbidding to eat Flefh 

. T-i , X 0- i^ in L a m : And yet fay they eat Ch rifts 

i . They make Miracles fle(h - Unt .. fc; k i f dt:d by 
to be one evidence offantli- o&ukmi* com. in i Ten <■. a; bring- 

„ J l. r f> eth in Blandma proving to the Hea- 

ty, and therefore (,anomZ.e tbens that Chriftians did not eat flefh 

men, When they think that and drink blood in the Eucharift, be- 

, '. r i i cauie that th^v u(e even to abftain for 

they have prOOt that they exer cife fake/from Lawful flefh. 

wrought Miracles : And 

yet maintain that a Whoremonger, Drunkard or He- 

retick may do many more. 

2. *They make Miracles a proof that they are the 
true Church, and fay that among m thefe are 'no Mira- 
cles ; and yet they eonlefs that every Prieli, among us 
and all others, whom they account Schifmaticks and He- 
reticks, do more Miracles than Qbrift ^\ if they confe- 
crate frequently. 

3. They burn men to allies for -working miracles ^ 
even for making Cod • if fo be, they do it not in the 
Roman fafhion. 

4. They confefs that the other Sacraments are not 
thus made up of Miracles - 9 no not Baptifm, which is our 

"Qiriftening, and wafheth us from our fins: And yet 
this Sacrament alone , mud by a multitude of Miracles 
differ from the reft. 

4. Whether the Doctrine of their St. Thomas and 
his followers and others, that the formal words of this 
Sacrament have a created effective virtue by which they 
rnftr urn ent ally make the change ( 3. q. 78. a. 4. c.) be 
not an "abfurdity rather than a proper miracle. For 

I 2 words 


■words Phyfically move but the air firft, and the terminus 
of the aires motion ( e.g. the ear ) next : and next 
that, if it be an intelle&ual, or oiher animal recipient, 
the fenfe, and fantafie next, and fo on : But the Bread - 
and Wine have no fenfe nor fantafie nor Intellect : And 
to fay that the moved aire is the means of turning them 
into the body and blood of Chrift, is ftill to multiply 

5. Do they not too much magnifie the common rvork^ 
( and confequendy the office ) of a Priefi, above the 
work of a Pope or Prelate, who feldom confecrate ? 
when the Prieft worketh fo many Miracles more than 

<5. They conclude that a (inner that hath Volnntatem 
feccandi receiveth Baptifm in vain, as to its ends of par- 
doning him, and therefore fhould not receive it ( Con- 
cil. Rom, Epift. Gregor. 7. Aquin. 3 . q. 68. a. 4.C. &c .) 
And yet, be the finner never fuch an hypocrite or Infidel, 
he eateth Chrifts real flefti nevertheless, yea againft his 
will, if he do but the outward ad. 

7. Is it not ftrangethat an Infidel receiveth as verily 
the real flefh and blood of Chrift as a Saint, and yet not 
the benefits or effects f As if Chrifts flefh and blood 
could be in a mans body without his benefit : When he 
hath promifed that he that eateth him, fiiall live by him. 
Yet fee the meafures of their faith and Church : Saith 
Aquinas (3. q. 80. a. 3. adz.) [Vnlefs perhaps an In- 
fidel intend to Receive that which the Church giveth, 
though he have not true faith about other Art teles or 
about this Sacrament ~] then he may receive facramen- 




The fourth <tArg ument. This Mir aculo hs Tranfubftan- 
tiation is ex pre fly contrary to the Word of God, in 

-&&' 4* TpHe Papifts fay that there is no bread after 
X the words or Confecration : Gods word 
faith, There is Bread after the Confecration : Therefore 
the Papifts fpeak contrary to the Word of God. 

I. In i Cor, i i. It is called exprefly BREAD after 
confecration no Iefs than three times in three verfes to- 
gether, 26) 27, 28. £ cc For as oft as ye eat this Bread 
M and Drinks this cup y ye fljcw the Lords death till he 
<c come, Wherefore whofoever frail cat this Bread and 
ic drink this cup of the Lord unworthily frail he guilty of 
Ci the Body and blood of the Lord, But let a man exa~ 
iC mine himfelf and fo let him eat of that Bread and. 
drinks of that £up 3 •* Here they that call for exprefs 
words of Scripture for our doftrine, without our con- 
fequences, may fee their own faith exprelly contradi&ed, 
and ouroppofition juftified : The Holy Ghoft here ex- 
prefly czUeih it Bread: And yet no exprefnefs nor evi- 
dence will fatisfie them. 

P f By Bread is meant that which was Bread before, 
or elfe that which nourifruth the foul as Bread doth the, 
body : And fo it is metonymically only called Bread, 
as Chrifts Flefti is called Bread in J oh, 6. 

R, Why then do you call for exprefs texts of Scri- 
pture as our proof, when that exprefnefs fignifleth no- 
thing with you •, but you can fay, It is a metonymie 
or a metaphor at your pleafure. But you fay fo againft 
notorious Evidence ; The Apoftle calleth it Bread fo 

I 5 often 


often over and over, as if he had forefeen your in- 
humane herefie : He calleth it The Bread which u to 
he Eat en j joyned with Drinking the fop -, never 
once- calling either of them the Flcfti or Blood of 
Chrift, but as he recketh Chrifts words which he 
expoundeth. Yea he tellech us that eating this bread, 
and drinking this cup, is to Jlicw the Lords death till he 
cor.ie j where he calleth us to look back at Chrifts death 
aspaft, in our Commemoration, and to loo\ forward to 
his perfonal coming as future - 5 but never telleth us that 
we muft kill Chrift and eat him our felves (' when we 
have made him), nor that his body is there prefent un- 
der the accidents of Bread and Wine; 

But the reft of the Scriptures as exprefly juftifie our 
do Anne, i Cor. 10. 15. The Cup of bleffmg which we 
b'ujs, is it not the Communion ( or Communication ) of 
the blood of fiorift : And the Bread which we breaks, i> 
it not the communion for participation ) of the body of 
Chrift ? J Here it is the £up and the Bread after Confed- 
eration, if the Holy Ghoft may be believed. 

And in the next words the Apoitle repeateth it in his 
reafon \For we being Many are One Bread, and One 
Body \ For we all partake of one Bread ( or Loaf). ] 
"Is not here exprefs proof? 

So At'h 20. 7. When we came together to break* 

Bread And v. 11. He afc ending, and break? 

ing bread, and eating &c. Here it is twice more called 
'jf?mrdTaf:er the Qo-nfecration (which ever went before 
the Breaking J. 

So Act. 2. 42, 46. It is twice more called Breaking 
cf Bread. 

And whatelfe can the recitation of Chrifts inftitution 
mean, 1 Cor. 11. ijL 24. Pancm accept (ft, f re gi§e -, 
to have taken Bread, and hiving given thankj, to have 
broken ? What is it that he brake f \ti fcori-ienCe if it 

h ive 

( "P) 

have no accufative cafe that it refpeds ? And plai n 
Grammatical conftrudion tells us then, that it muft be 
that before mentioned, What he Took*, he bleffed y and 
brake and gave : But he tool^. Bread and the Cup . The 
fame is in Mat. 26, 26, 27. and the other Evangelifts. 

II. The Scriptures expreily ( Acl.z^&c.) make the 
Killing of fortfl^ and drawing his blood, to be the hey- 
nous fin of the Jews, for which fome Repented and 
others were call: off : Therefore it is not to be believed 
that Chrift did firft kJM or tear him f elf ^ and JW his own 
blood ^ or that his diiciples did kill him, or tear his fiefh 
and fried his blood, before the Jews did it. And if 
they tore his flefh and drank his blocd, and yet killed 
him not, the event altered not the fad 1 The Jews did 
but break, his flejh and floed his blood. If you fly to a 
good intention^ Paul will come in for fome further ex- 
cufc for his perfecution. 

III. 1 Cor. 10. 21. Te cannot drink* the cup of the 
Lord, and the cup of Devils : Te cannot be partakers of 
the Lords table and of the table of Devils* — Here 
note 1 . That the fame phrafe is ufed of the Participa- 
tion of the Lords myftzrks and the Devils, But it was 
not the flefh and blood or the fubflance of Devils which 
the Idolaters ever intended to partake of : but only 
their facrifices, 

2. It is here called only the Table and the Cup, and 
not the flejl) and the blood. 

"3. It is faid that They could not partake of both : 
whereas according to the Papifts doctrine, if a man 
fhould partake of the Idols facrifce in the morning, 
and of the Lords Table in the evening ( without repen- 
tance, ) he fhould really partake of Q)rifls own 
flefh and blood • which the Text faith cannot be 

P, It meaneth only, You cannot Lawfully, or you 
I 4 ought; 

ought not to partake of both, but not that it is impojfible 
or never dene. 

R. No doubt but it meaneih that They ought not, or 
cannot Lawfully-^ but thats no: all : The text plainly 
meaneth, Ton cannot have communion with both : You 
may take the bread and wine at your peril t but you can- 
pot partake of it as a facramental feafi which God pre- 
pared you, and fo partake of Chrift iherein. 

And the fame is faid ( expounding this) 2Cor.6.i5;. 

What concord hath Chrifi with Belial * and what 

agreement hath the temple of God with Idols . ? J Inti- 
mating that Communion with God and Idols, Chrift and 
Belial, are ( f o far) inconfiftent :• But by the Papifts 
do&rine an Idolater and Son of Belial may partake of 
the very fubflance of Chrifts body and blood, into his 
fody> as verily as he partaketh of his meat and drink. 

IV. The Scripture teacheth us exprefly to judg.e of 
fenfible things by fenfe. Luk, 24. 39. [_Behold my hands 
and my feet, that it is I my felf : handle me, and fee ■ 
for' a fpirit hath not fleflj and bones as ye fee ml have* 
And when he had thus fpok*n, he foewed them his hands 
■ and his feet ^\ And v. 43, \he dideat before thcm~] to 
confirm their faith. But they could have no more fen- 
fible evidence of any of this, than we have of the being 
of Bread and Wine, or fome fenfible fubftance after 
Confecraiion. Joh. 2. 9. they taftedthe water turned 
into Wine, and were convinced. 

P, But the Body of Chrift here is not a fenfible thing. 
R. But Bread and Wine are frnfible things. 
P. BuiTheyare not There \ and fo are no objeds of 

#. But all our fenfes fay that They are there ^ and 
by them we muft judge. 

P. Your fenfes perceive nothing but Accidents : and 
your understanding mnfl believe Qod, and io (as you 



noted oqt of Aquinas before) there is no deceit either 
of fenfe or Intellect. 

R, Though this be anfwered fully before, I will again 
tell you, That thefe two notorious falihoods are all that 
you have to fay againft Humanity in this cafe, thats 
worth the noting. I. Itisfalfethat you fay that fenfe 
perceiveth not fubfiance ; When I take up a ftatf or 
ftone in my hand, I do not only feel Roughnefs or 
Smooihnefs, &c, but a. fub fiance : It is a quantitative, 
and qualitative fubftance, which I feel, talte, fmell, fee 
and hear : And this I perceive by fenfation it felf, as the 
medium to the Intellect, It is not the fenfe indeed, but 
the Intellect that giverh it the Logical notion or defini- 
tion of zfubftancc ^ but it is the fenfe it felf that by fen- 
fation perceivetb it •, and to deny this is to deny all fenfe. 
And if it were not fo, How could any finch fub fiance 
be known ? when it cannot come into the Intellect but by 
the fenfe ? 

1 1, fly* Your great cheat ( or errour ) is by con- 
founding the firft and natural-necefiary perception of a 
fenfibile ft nj alum or incomplex objeti^ by the Intellect, 
with the fecond conception of the Names of things, or 
of Organical fecond notions, and the third conception of 
them Artificially by the ufe of thefe names and Organi- 
cal notions, and the fourth perception of Confequents 
from thole conceptions. To know by Believing is but 
the third or fourth fort of knowledge, and prefup- 
pofeth the two firft. If a man had never heard a name 
or word in his life ^ yet by fenfation as foon as he faw, 
fmelt, tafted, heard, handled things, his Inteflctl would 
have had a pe rception oftheTbing it felf as it was ; 'fen fate ^ 
And this is the Intellects firft perception : And this is it 
which falleth under our queftion, Whether the Intellect 
in thii fir ft perception of a fub fiance or Thing as fenfate, 
be deceived or not, when the Thing harh the Conditions 



of an object before mentioned. 2. Next this we learn or 
invent Names and organic al notions for things : And 
whether thefe be true or falfe, and whether they be apt 
or inept is all one. This is but an arbitrary work of 
art. 3. Next this we conceive of things by the Means 
of thefe Names and fccond notions , and examine the 
Congruence : and fo we define them : And this is bu: a 
work of .Artificial Reafo?;ing, and prefuppofeth the firft 
■Natural neccjfary perception. Now Faith belongeth 
partly to this, and partly to the fourth, which is The 
railing of Conclufions, and the weaving of methods ; 
and prefuppofeth the firft, yea and the fecond : It is but 
an aflent given by the means of an Extrinfick Teftimony 
of God, that this particular Word is True, &c. Now 
if the Intellect in its firft Perception ( natural and ne~ 
ceffary ) of the Thing it [elf, as fenfate, be deceived, 
if faith fhould be contrary to it, 1 .It muft be fuch a 
Faith which is the immediate contrary perception of a 
fen fate obje'Ci - 5 which is no faith , nor is any luch poilible, 
f properly called faith ) : 2. And if faith can come af- 
ter and undeceive the Intellect, by faying that God faith 
otherwife, yet this would be no prevention of its decepti- 
on, but a cure, prefuppofing the faid deception as the di- 
feafe to be cured. So that to fay as Aquinas thar faith 
preventeth the deceit of the JnteHeEi, is a fa Ifhood con- 
trary to the nature of man, and his natural way of act- 
ing, as he is compofed of foul and body. 

I have faid this over again, left errour get advantage 
by the brevity and unobfervednefs of that which I faid 




Argum. 5. All thefe miracles have not the leaft proofs 
yea> the Scriptures fully dlretl its to a crofs interpre- 
tation of the Papijh pretended proofs - 5 which alfo are 
renounced by themfelves. 

I Know cf no Scripture proof in the World that the 
Papifts pretend to, but the words, This is my Body, 
and This is my Bloody and fuch like. And that thefe are 
no proof I (hall fully prove to any impartial man. 

I. The very nature of the Sacrament inftitured by 
Chrift with his expreffed End, command our Reafon 
to expound the word ["is] of fignijication^ reprefenta- 

J tion Or exhibition, and the word [Body] and [Blood] 
of a new Relative form only, that is, of a body and 

: blood Reprefentative, ( which is all one in effect ) : As a 

] piece of Gold, Silver, or Brafs, is by the law and ftamp 
turned really into the Kings Current Coine •> and fo hath 

; a new Relative form : fo that ycu may truly fay that 
there is a change made of the Gold, or Silver into the 
Kings Coyn : and it is no more to be called meer Gold or 
Silver ( though it be Gold and Silver frill), becaufe the 
form denominated, and the new form is now that in 
queftion which mull denominate. Or as a Prince that 
is marryed in effigie or by a Reprefentative to a wo- 
man, is not there perfonally •, and yet it is aptly faid, 
This is the Prince which is betrothed or marryed to thee* 
Of as we fay of Pi&ures, This is Peter, or Paul, cr 
John. Or as when we deliver a man poflTeflion of a 

Ho ufe 


Ho fife by a Key, or of Land by a tmg and a turf 7 or of 
a Qmirch by the be trope, &c. and fay, Take, this is 
f*ch a Ho fife , or finch a piece of Land, or Church, &c. 
As this is ordinary intelligible (peech among all men, fo 
Chrift tells them that he would be founderftood. 

1. In that his Real natural body fpaks this, of the 
Bread and Wirt e which was wr his natural body : His 
real na ural body was prefent, vilible, entire, unwound- 
ed, his blood unipilt, and did eat and drink (the other, 
as the Papifts hold, as being the fume ) : And can any 
living man imagine that the Difciples who underftood 
not his Death, Refurre&ion, Afcenfion, &c. yet un- 
derftood by thefe four words, when th y faw Chrifts 
body alive and pre&nt, that this Bread and Wine was 
that fame Body and Blood, without any more quell i- 
oning ? 

2. In that he bids them, Do this in Remembrance cf 
him . which plainly fpeaketh a commemorating llgn : 
Who will fay at his Iaft farewell when he is parting with 
his friends, / will flay among you, or keep me among you, 
in Remeyy.br ance of me ? So for Chrift to fay, Jiat me in 
remembrance of ?fce,were flrange. 

1 1. It may put all out of Controverfie to find, that 
Chrifts words of one half cfthe Sacran.cnt arc (as they 
confefs) figurative •, therefore the other mull be lo judg- 
ed alio. Luk, 22. 20. This (fiup is the new Teftament in 
my blood, which is filled for you : I Cor. 11.25, [This 
Cup is the new Tv flame nt in my blood,^} And here no 
man denyeth a double Trope at leaffc : no man expound- 
ed it, that the Cup or tlie Wine \\\v: the New Teftament 
it J 'elf And yet it is as expreily laid, as it is that the 
$rea4i$ the Body it (elf. How men will they prove 
that ont is fpoken properly, and the other figura- 

HI, There 


III. There is no more found in thele words to a flirt 
the Br tad to be Chrijls Body , than is found in a multi- 
tude of fuch phrafes in Scripture aliening things which 
all men expound othtrwife. As in Joh. 15. 1. / km the 
Vine and my Father U the hnsbayidman : Joh. 10.7, 9. 

t am the door Joh. 10. 14. I am the good Shepherd 

and know my Sheep : Pfal. 22. 6. 1 am a worm and no 
man ( which being a propheiie of Chrift, a Heretick imi- 
tating you, might deny Chrifts humanity :) 1 Cor.10.4. 

That Rock^was Chrift 1 Cor. 12. 27. Te are the 

body of Chrift - Mat. 5. 13, 14. Te are the Salt of the 

earth: Te are the lights of the World Joh. 6. 63. 

The words that I Jpeak^ unto you they are fpirit and 
they are Life. Abundance fuch are in the Scripture, as 
Alifiefh is grafs : Chrift is the Lamb of God : the Lyon 
of the Tribe of Jnda ^ the bright Morning Star ^ the 
head Corner Stone, ®>c. 

And it is yet more fully fatisfa&ory, that the Hebrew 
conftantly putteth [_is J for [fignifieth] as you may 
find in all the old Teftament •, having no other word fo 
fit to exprefs \_figntfying ~] by : And as Chrift fpake 
after that manner, fo the New Teftament ordinarily imi- 
tateth •, As DamelzxA the Revelation agree in faying, 
of the Virions, This is fuch or fuch a thing, inflead of 
this fignifieth ir. So Chrift, aj^atth. 13, 21, 22, 
2 3> 17 •> 38, 39. He that foweth is the Son of man : 
the field is the world : the good feed are the 
Children of the Kingdom ; the tares are the children of 
the wicked one : the enemy is the Devil, the Harveft: 

is the end. The reapers are the Angels And 

thus ordinarily.. 

I V. Yea, the fame kind of phrafe ufed before 
in the PafTeover, teacheth us how to expound this : 
Excd. 12. II. Te frail eat it in haft e^ It is the Lords 

PafftQZ'tr — 

Paffcover verf. 27. It is the facrifice of the Lords 


V. Yea the ordinary way and fhrafe of Chrifts 
teaching may yet farther put us out of doubt. For he 
ufually taught by Parables, and exprefTeth his fenfe by 
fuch afTertions : As Matth. 13. 3. Behold afowerwent 
out to fow, &c. Luk. 15. 11, 12. A certain man had 
two fans, and the younger fiid, &c. Luk. 12. 1 6. The 
ground of a certain Rich man, &c. Luk. 16. 19. 
There was a certain Rich man, &c. Mat. 21. 28. A 
certain man had two fons 7 &c. Verf. 33. There was a 
certain houflwlder which planted a Vineyard, &c. The 
Gofpel aboundeth with fuch inftances, which teach us 
how to interpret thefe words of Chrift. 

V I. But mod certainly all thofe forementioned texts 
teach it us, which expreily call it Bread after the Con- 
fecration. If we will not believe the Holy Ghoft him- 
fjlf, who fo frequently calleth it bread, it is in vain to 
alledge any text of Scripture in the Controverfie. 

Now to feign a courfe of ordinary Miracles^ Great- 
er and more than Chrifts, and this to every Prieft, 
how ignorant and impious foever ^ to pretend that 
every Pope and Bifhop can for money fell the Holy 
Ghoft or the Gift of Miracles, in Ordination -, and all 
this when no eye feeth the Miracles, when it is con- 
feffed .that Angels cannot naturally fee it, yea when 
all mens fenfes perceive the contrary ; and all this 
becaufe, that Chrift faid This is my Body, while abun- 
dance fuch fayings in Scripture, yea the words about 
the Cup it felf, are confeffed to be tropical, and when 
the Scripture exprefly telleth us that there is 'Bread. 
Judge whether it be poftible for Satan to have put a 
greater fcorn upon the Chriftian faith, or a greater 
fcandal before the enemies of it, or a greater hindcrance 


/ ( I2 7 ) 

/to the Worlds Convention, than to tell them, you mud 
renounce not only your Humanity but all common fenfe, 
if you will be Cnriftians, and be faved, or fuffered to 
enjoy your eftates and lives. 

VII. Laftly, It is ordinary with their fubtileft 
Schoolmen to confefs that this their do&rine of Tran- 
fubftantiation cannot be proved from Scripture, and 
that they believe it only becaufe their Church faith it y 
which mull be believed, and becaufe that by the fame 
ffirit which wrote the Scripture, the Church u taught 
thus to expound it. So that all their faith of this is by 
them refolved into a phanatick pretence of Infpra- 
tion -, As I have elfewhere (hewed cut of "Durandus^ 
Talndamts> Scotus y Oc^am, Quodl.6. li,$. q. $i.Rada 
vol. 4. Cont.-j.a. 1. fag* 164, 165. 

And no General Council ever determined it till that 
at Row, under Inncc. 3 . Where faith Matth. 'Taru^ 
many decrees were propofed or brought in by the 
Pope which fome liked and fome difliked. And this was 
12 1 5 years afcer Chrifts birth. And Stephantu <s£- 
duenfis is the firft in whom the name of Tranfubftantia- 
tion is found, about the year 1 100. 




Arg. 6. From the Nature of a Sacrament* 

Arg.6. HP Hat Doftrine which by confequence de- 
Jl nyeth the Lords Supper to be a true Sacra- 
ment, isfalfe. 

The Papifts do&rine of Tranfubftantiation by con- 
fequence denyeth the Lords vSupper to be a true Sa- 
crament : Therefore the Papifts do&rine of Tranfut> 
flantiation is falfe. 

The Major I know no man that will deny that we 
have now to deal with. 

The Minor needeth no other proof, than the common 
definition of a Sacrament, and Chrifts own defcription 
of this Sacrament in the Scripture. 

I. Aquino* concludeth 3. q. 60. a. t. that a Sacra- 
mem is a fign • and a t 2. that it is a fign of a thing facred 
as it fan&ifleth men •. and d.3. that it is a Rememorative 
fign of Chrifts paifion, a demonftrative fign of Gods 
Grace, and a prognofticating fign of future Glory: 
And a. 4. that it muft be Res fenfibilis a fenfible things 
it being natural to man to come to the knowledge of 
things intelligible by things fenfible, and the Sacrament 
fignifieth to man fpiritual and intelligible Goods : and 
a. 5. that they muft be thing's of Divine determina- 
tion, &c* 

But, 1. If the Bread and Wine be gone, there isno- 

thing left to be ay?^-;/, a Real fenfible fign, to lead us 

-to the knowledge of fpiritual and intelligible things. 

If they fay that the fpecies of Bread and Wine is the 

fenfible fign , what mean they by that cheating word 

r '/peeks n 

(I2 9 ) 

\_fpecies?~\ Not the Specifying form or matter, but 
only the outriard appearance. And is it a true or a 
falfe appearance ? If True, then there is Bread arid 
Wine.* ii falfe , it is a falfe fign : And what is that 
falfe appearance which God maketh a Sacrament of > 
It is plainly nothing but 'the Accidents of Bread and 
Wine without the fubftance. But, i. When they take 
the Gup from the Laity, and deny them half the Sacra- 
ment, fure there are then no Accidents of Wine. Is 
there either Quantity, Colour, Smell, Tafle, &c. of 
Wine? They will not fay ic. So that here is no fenfible 
fign as to one half. 

2i And herein they deal far more inhumanely with 
us than the Infidels themfelves : For when they plead 
againft Chrift and Scripture, they grant that the com* 
mon principles and Not it U , which all mankind ac- 
knowledge , are the certain 
unqueftionabie light of No- ** W ™T ■ Rea f cn f f or th l 

1 J « i ii •// j Christian Religion, and the Lord 

tare. But the Papifts deny Herbert de nutate. 
not only the Notitias com- 

munes, but common fenfe. It is nothing with them to 
damn all the world, that will not believe contradicti- 
ons. They fay that the Quantity of Nothing endued 
with the (sualities>t\\e Attions, tht Taffion, the Relati- 
ons , the quando^ubi, fit us o£ nothing, is the Sacramen- 
tal fign. Inhumane contradiction I i . Gaffendm and 
others fay truly, that an Accident is not properly Res, 
but Modus Rei y (vel i?/^/;taJ,as he calleth it.) z.Quan- 
tity doth not Really differ a re quanta : and to fay, 
Q The Lengthy Breadth, Profundity of Nothing ] is a 
notorious contradiction; And fo it is of the other 
Accidents. There is no Real fenfible fign> and therefore 
no Sacrament, where there is nothing, but the quantity, 
colour, tafie, fine 11, &c. of Nothing. 

3, And they cannot, thev dare not fay, that Chrifts 
K Real 

Real Flefh and Blood, is the Sacramental fign: For, 
i. It is not fenfible ; 2. It fhould be then the fign 
of it felf: The fign and the thing fignified cannot be 
the fame. 

II. The very fubflantiality or corporeity of the 
Bread 2nd Wine as fuck, is part of the fign: As Chrift 
faith, Behold and handle me, a ffirit hath not flefii and 
bloody as ye fee me have : So he taketh Cor fore al bread 
and wine in their fight, and breadth it, and poureth it 
cut, and giveth it them to fee, to feel, to tafte, to eat, 
that they may know it is true bread a?id wine , the 
figns of his True Body and Blood. So that to deny 
the Corporeity is to deny Chrifis Corporeity in its figns -, 
and tendethtothe old Herefie of them that held that 
Chrift had but a phantafiical body, or was not indeed 
Crucified, but feemcd fo to be : They teach Hereticks 
to argue, The fign was no Real fubfiance : Therefore 
neither the thing fignified. 

III. The nutritive ufe of the bread and wine was 
another part of the fign, as all confefs : As bread and 
wine are the Nutriment of the body and life of man, 
fo is Chrift crucified meritorioufly, and Chrifl glorified 
efficiently, the life of the foul. And he that denyeth 
the Nutritive fign, denyeth the Sacrament : But it is 
not the falfe appearance, or phantafm, or accidents of 
bread and wine, that are the natural nourijhers of mm : 
Therefore he that denyeth the nourifliing fubfiance , 
denyeth the Real fenfible Sacramental fign. 

Saith Bellarmin de Euchar. /. 3. c. 23. \_ln the Eu- 
charifi we receive not corporal food that the flefii may 
be thence nouriflied and made fat : but only to fignifie 
inward refeBion.^\ So that he acknowledged this to 
be part of the Sacramental fign. So Gregor. Valent. 
faith that \_The chief and cjfential fignifie ation of this 
Sacrament is that which by external nourishment _is 


fignifed, the internal fpiritual refetlion of the foul by the 
body cfChrift. ] So that denying the nouriflnng fign is 
deftroying the eifence of the Sacrament. 

I V. The breaking of the Bread and pouring out the 
Wine is confeiTedly another part of the Sacramental fen- 
fible fign. Bur, i. When there is no Wine, there is no 
pouring it out : 2. And if there be no Bread neither, 
there is no breaking it : Can that be broken which is 
not ? They that deny ( as the Papifts do ) that the 
Bread is broken ( faying that only the Quantity of 
Nothing is broken ) deny the fenfible Sacramental fign. 

And here I may note, that we do not well to contend 
with them for denying the Cup only to the Laky, and 
granting them only the Bread, when indeed they grant 
neither, but deny them both : There is ( fay they^ 
no more Bread than Wine but only a falfe appearance 
of it. 

V. Laftly, TheApoftle i Cor. 10. 16, 17. fheweth 
that one Sacramental ufe of the Bread was to fignifie the 
Vnity ofChriftians, who are one Bread, and one Bo- 
dy, as one Loaf is made of many Corns. But that 
cannot be One, which is Nothing: E?is^ Vmm & 
Verum convert untur. To fay with Greg. VatenP. and 
Bellarmine , that becaufe it was Once bread, and one 
bread, therefore the accidents of it remaining now fig- 
nifie that we are one bread • is but to fay, that There 
was once a fit fign, but then there wanted the form ; 
Now after Confecration, there is no Sacramental fign, 
but yet there is a Sacramental form : And in what Mat- 
ter is that form ? Doubtlefs it can be no where but in 
the Brain or Mind of man : That is, man can Remember 
that once he faw Bread : This is the fpecies of bread in 
his Intellect : This fpecies is the pan : And fo we have 
found out another fenfe of the jpecies of bread , than 
many think on • viz. It is that which is called Thefpe- 

K 2 ties 

ties intentionalis^ or the Idea or conception of bread 
in a mans fantajie and mind : And fo indeed the Sacra- 
ment is with them an invifible thing : for it is only 
in mens minds : There is no Sacrament on the Altar , 
but in the thoughts : And fo who hath a Sacrament, and 
who not, we know not -. And a man may by thinking 
make a Sacrament when he will. 

>■■'■ . ' M l. — I , ■ ■ II 


Of the Novelty of TranfMantiation. 

R $ T Once thought to have next proved out of the 
A Current of Antiquity , the Novelty of this inhu- 
mane doctrine of the Papifts , and that the Antients 
commonly confefTed , that there was true Bread and 
Wine remaining in the Sacrament afcer Confecration : 
But, i . I mould but temp and weary ordinary Readers, 
who neither need any fuch arguments ( having Senfe 
and Scripture to give them fatisfa&ion ) nor are able to 
try them : For it is an indirect kind of dealing, to ex- 
pect that the unlearned, or thofe that are ftrangers to 
the Writings of the Antients, mould believe this or that 
to be their mind and fayings , meerly becaufe I tell 
themfo. And if they read the plained words, they 
know not whether I rightly recite them, but by be- 
lieving me. And it is as unreafonable on the other 
fide, that the Papiits mould expect , either by their 
Citations or their general Affirmations, that the Rea- 
ders mould believe them, that the Antients were for 
Tranfubftantiation. Till men can both read the Au- 
thors themfelves, and try the Copies, they can have no 
fure hiftorical notice what the Fathers held , except by 



the common confent of credible Reporters or Hiftori- 
ans : Not while one fide faith, they fay this, and the 
other fide faith they fay thecontrary,and yet their Books 
are to be feen by all. We may bid them believe «/,and 
the Papifts may bid them believe them, and a Prieft 
may cheat them by faying, that his word is the Chur- 
ches : But though this will produce a humane belief in 
the Hearers or Readers, as by advantages it is moll 
taking with them, yet that fallible belief is all the 
Certainty that it can afford them. Therefore I think 
it moil ingenuous and reafonable to give men fuch argu-i 
ments as they are capable of underftanding and im- 
proving to certain fatisfa&ion. 

2 . Becaufe they that can ftudy fuch Authors as have 
gathered the fentences of the Amients in this Contro- 
verfie, may find it fo fully done by Edmund. Albertinus 
?n his fecond Book, that they can need no more. 

P. You know that Albertinus is anfwered. 

R. And I know that he is again Defended : And who 
doubreth but you. can anfwer me copioudy, if I did 
maintain that the Sun giveth light : What is it that a 
man cannot talk for ? efpecially they that can hope to 
perfwade all the Chriftian world , that they rauft be 
damned, unlefs they will believe that all mens fenfes are 
deceived, and that God is the great Deceiver of the 

P. But how can you think to pleafe God and be 
faved, if you be not of the fame faith as the Church hath 
alwayes been of ? All the antient Fathers and Catholick 
Church were for Tranfubftantiation ; and are you wifer 
and in a fafer way than they ? 

R. You have loft your credit with me fo far, as that 
your word is no oracle to me ; If I mud not believe 
my own nor other mens fenfes^ I am not bound to be- 
lieve you : at lead when I know you fpeak falflv. 

K 3 Buc 

But I pray tell me, How know you that the Church 
and Fathers did io believe ? 

P. Becaufe the prefent Church faith fo^ which can- 
not err. 

R* Do not your own Writers fay, that a General 
Council and Pope may err in matter of fad: ? and 
that they did fo in Condemning Pope Honor int and in 
other Cafes ? 

P. Yes : but this is a matter of faith. 
R. Is knot a matter of fad, what this or that man 
faid, and what dodrine the Church at fuch a time did 
teach and hold ? 

But how know you that the prefent Church doth fay 
fo, that this was the faith of the antient Church ? 
P. By their teftimony in a General Council. 
R. Did you hear the Council fay fo ? 
P. No: but the Church tellethme that the Council 
faid fo. 

R. Who is it that you now call the Church which 
tells you fo ? 

P. My Superiours , who have it from the Pope, and 
their Fathers. 

R. Are your Superiours that told you fo,the Church > 
Or is the Pope the Church ? If fo, What need you fay 
a Council is the Church ? And how know you that 
the Pope and your Superiours err not in a matter 
of fad ? 

P. I know it by the Decrees of the Council yet 

R. i. But if fenfe be deceitful , how know you 
that you ever read fuch Decrees ? 2. How know you 
that they are not forgeries, or fince corrupted ? 

P. The Church is a faie keeper of its own Re- 

A Still 


R. Still what mean you by the Church ? The Vul- 
gar -either keep nor under ftand your Councils. The 
Council of Trent is long ceafed : No other General 
Counc.i hath been fince, to tell you what are the true 
Decrees of that Council. The Pope is not the Church : 
And he may err in amauer of tad : What then is the 
Church that tells you certainly what the Council of 
Trent decreed ? Tell me if you can. 

P. We have fuch common hiftorical Evidence and 
Tradition, as you have for your Ads of Parliament 
when the Parliament is ended. The prefent Gover- 
nours preferve them. 

R. Very good: It is the Office of the Governours 
to take that Care, but therein they are not indefedible 
and infallible . but they and the pub >lifhed Laws, and the 
notice of the whole Land, and the Judicial proceedings 
by them in the Courts of judicature make uo a Certain 
flifiorical Evidence. And fo it mav be in your Cafe : 
And when you have talkt your utmoft, you can fhew 
no more. And have not we the fame Writings of Fa- 
thers and Councils as you have ? You dare not deny it. 
Why then may not we know what is in them as well 
as you ? And I pray you tell me, Whether your Anti- 
quaries, fuch as Albafpin&us, Sixtus Senenfis,Vetavius, 
Sirmondus,&c, do prove what Cyprian, Optatns, An- 
gufiine, &c. held, by the judgement of the Pope or 
Councils, or by citing the words of the Authors them- 
felves ? And do C ra ^-> Binnim^ Surius, fitranza, &c. 
prove what one Council faid by the authority of ano- 
ther, or by the Records themfelves, yet vifible to all ? 

P. Thofe Records themfelves, even the vifible 
Writings of the Fathers and Councils are for Tranfub- 

R, Till you have perfwaded tfie out of my fenfes, I 
will not believe you, I pray you tell me if you can of 

K 4 any 

V k 5" ) 

any Author or Council that ever ufed the name 
£ Tranfubftantiarion ] before Stephanus <^£duenfo after 
the year i ioo, de Sacram. <*Aitar. c. 1 3. 

P. Though the name be new, the Doctrine is not. 

R. Tell'me next, what General Council did ever de- 
termine it, before the Council of Lateranc under ln- 
noc. 3. an, 12 15. 

P. Not exprefly : for General Councils need not 
mention it, till the Albigenfes Hereticks gave them oc- 
cafion by denying it, 

R. Was it an Article of faith before ? If it were, 
either the Councils are not the meafure of your faith, 
or it is very mutable. 

P. Among all your qucftionings anfwer me this que- 
ftion if you can.Tf that General Council decreed Tranfub- 
ftantiarion, what could move them fo to do, if it were not 
the faith of the Church before ? Were they not all of 
the fame mind the day before they did it ? and fo the 
day before that, and the day before that, &c. Or do 
you think that they were againft Tranfubftantiation the 
night before, and awaked all of another mind the next 
morning ? What could make all the Paftors of the 
Church think that this was the true faith, if they did 
not think it was the antient faith ? And whac could 
make them think it the antient faith, if it were not fo? 
Did not they know what their Fathers held ? And did 
not their Father? know what their Fathers held I The 
fame I fay of the Council ofTrept alfo, 

R. Thus men that mull not believe the common fenfe of 
mankind, can believe the dreaming conjectures of their 
brains,and {it in a corner, and thence tell the world what 
can and what cannot be done by publick afTemblies, at 
many hundred years and miles di fiance. Who would not 
laugh at a Fryer, that in his Ceil would tell by moral 
conjectures, all the tnoughts and motions of an Army 
*'''•" cr 


/ or Navy, that never faw them, and contrary to the ex- 
perience of tbofe that were on the ground and interefled 
in their Councils and a&ions, Obferve how many falfe 
fuppofitions go to make up your cheats. 

1 . You fuppofe this a true General Council , which 
is a pack of factious Prelates fubjed to the Pope, and 
affembled at Rome in his own Palace,under the awe of his 
prefenceand power. And as if thefmall number after at 
Trent had fpake the minds of all the Churches, 

2. You fuppofe all the members of a Council to be 
of. one mind, : when as they determine by the Major 
Vote. And oft times the difference is not above type 
or three, and its poflible one Voice may turn the fcales : 
And perhaps one, or two , or ten may be abfent one 
day, and prefent another, and fo the Cry of £ the 
Judgement of all the Bijhops in the world J may figniiie 
no more, but that two or three of the other fide ftaid a 
little too long at dinner that day, while the other par- 
ty carryed it by their abfence. And I pray you where 
hath God promifed, that the faith of an hundred and 
one (hall not fail, when the faith of ninety nine of the 
fame company may fail ffuppofing the Council to be 
two hundred )\ Or why are the one hundred and one the 
Bifhops of all the world, and not the ninety nine ? 

3 . Do you think we never read the Hiftory of the 
Council of Trent ? and before them, of the Councils of 
Ariminum^ Ephef 2, yea, Calcedon , &c. ? And yet 
muft we fuppofe , that men come thither all of one 
mind ? when they have fuch fliameful Contentions ? 
Such cunning contrivances to get the majority of Votes ? 
Such awe and terror from the power of the Chief? and 
fuch carnal dependances and refpe&s to their feve- 
rai wprldly interefts? Yea, fometimes fighting it cut 

| unto blood ( as Diofcoms and Flqyianm cafe doth 
fhamefully evince? ) 

4. And 


4- And muft we fuppofc mens minds to be changed 
in their Jleep , when the awe or the oratory of other 
men change them ? Do we not know the Courfe of the 
Parliaments of England of later times ? How much a 
few men of more than ordinary parts and intereft, 
can do with the reft ? And how oft the major Vote 
hath gone againft the fenfe of the far greater number 
of the Houfe ? 

5. And do we not know, that ordinarily he that is 
fent to the Council from a Province, is chofen as it pleaf- 
eih the Pope, the King, or the Archbifhop, or fomc in 
greateft power ; and rarely according to the free-will 
and fenfe of the greater part of the Clergy. If five 
hundred to one of the Clergy of a Kingdom be of one 
mind, and the Prince , or chief men, or powerfulleft 
Prelatcs be of another, they will fend a Bifhop thither 
of their own mind. 

6. Do you think we know not that all the Papifts are 
not paftthe third or fourth part of the Chriftian world? 
-Why then fhould their fenfe be called the fenfe of all 
the Chriftian world ? 

7. Do you think we know not how little reafon you 
have to fay, that the Council at Later ane fpake the fenfe 
of all the Church ? When the Decrees were but pro- 
posed by Pope Innocent ', and recited there without any 
due Syraodical deliberation, and fome liked them, and 
fome diiliked them ? as you may find in Math. Vans 
mK.John^NaHclcrusGener. 41. ad an, 1215, Gode- 
fridm ad an. 12 15. Platina in Vita Innoc. 3. And 
this one of your late falfe Scriblers in a Book for Tole- 
ration alfo faith ♦, Though the Difputers againft 
■IJr. Gunning and Dr. Tier [on copioufly and confidently 
juftifie that Council : and indeed with you it paffethfor 
an Approved one. 

8, And 

( l 39) 

8. And were not your arguing as ftrong for the 
Council of Epbef. 2. and that at aArim. and Sirmium, 
and divers at Conftanttnople difallowed , and thofe at 
C»?iflance and JBajil, ( where were many times the num- 
ber of the Council at Trent ) ? Did thefe Councils all 
go to bed of one mind, and rife of another? Or did 
they not know what their Fathers faith was ? Why then 
do you reprobate them, and deny that which they de- 
creed as" of faith ? Is it not a fhame, to talk of \_the 
Bijbops of all the world ~\ and [_ Tradition from their 
fathers J when your meaning is but that All thefe may 
err, and do oft err^ unlefs one man> the Pope approve 
them } But where fenfe is renounced, we mufl not ex- 
peel modefty. 

P. But the antient Councils and Fathers are againft: 
you, as is to be feen. 

JR. It is utterly falfe : I will not abufe the Reader fo 
as to carry him into a Wood , and lofe him among a 
multitude cf old Books, when he hath more fatisfa&ory 
evidence enough at hand. 

But, I. As to all your Citations from true antiquity 
( for your forged Authors and corrupted Teftimonies 
we regard not ) they are anfwered by this one true 
obfervation, that when old Writers fometimes fay, that 
after confecration it is £ No more bread and wine, but 
the body and blood of Chrift ], their whole Context 
plainly (heweth,that they mean that it is no more MEER 
or Common Bread and Wine ^ and ufually they fo fpeak. 
Becaufe forma denominate and it is the ultimate form 
that denominateth , all antecedent forms being but the 
difpoftio materia. As if the queftion be , Whether a 
Shilling be Silver or Money f Before the Coining, k 
was but Silver ; but after, it is no more Common Silver ? 
but Money : Silver is but the matter , and not the de- 
nominating form, Is your Garment to be called Cloth, 


or a fi 9a k. ? Before the making it was but Cloth, but 
now it is not meer Cloth, but a Cloaks The fame I 
may fay of the Kings Crown and Scepter, or of any 
Relative , Reprcfentative or Perforating form that is 
added to any matter or man. This is the plain mean- 
ing of the Antients. 

1 1. And as to what they fay againft you, I will now 
only give you a few brief inftances. 

i.Jufiin Martyr, in Dial, cumTryph, faith, [_The 
offering of Flower delivered to be offered for them 
that were cleanfed of the Leprofie , was a Type of the 
PRE AD of the Eucharift which our Lord fefus 
ftrift commanded us to makj in remembrance of his 
paffton, dec. ] 

And more plainly Apolog. 2. ( indeed the firft ) 
£ When the Prtfident hath given thanks , and all the 
people acclaimed^ thofe that with us are caHcd Deacons, 
diftribute to every one prefent BREAD and WINE and 
Water y and bring them to thofe that are abfent. ] 

2, Iren&HS faith lib, 4. c. 34, [For as the Bread 
which is of the fiarth receiving the divine invocation, 
is not now Common Bread, but the Eucharift, confefiing 
of two things, theTerrene and the Celeftial, &c. J 

See more out of him in Albert inus, at large. 

l.Tcrtullian cont, Marcion I. 3. c, 19. [Calling 
Bread his Body, that hence you may under ft and that he 
gave to Bread the Figure of his body, ~\ 

And before /. 1 . [_ He reprobated not — £rcad, 

by which he Rcprefentech his very Body. ~\ 

And lib. 4. cap. 40. \_ The Bread which he took^ and 
difiributcd to his Difciples he made his body , faying. 

This is my Body j that is, The figure of my body, 

*s4nd what he would have Bread then fig ni fie , he fuffi- 
ciently declared, calling Bread his Body. 2 



And it Is a notable paflage of Tertullians againft the 
Academicks that queftioned fenfe , lib, de amm. c. 17. 
[ What doft thou , O procacious Academic!^ ? Thou 
ruerthroweft the whole ftate of life : Thou difturbeft 
the whole order of nature ; Thou bltndeft the providence 
tf God himfelf ; as if he had made mens lying and 
deceitful fenfes to be the Lords, in under ft anding, ho- 
nouring-, difpenftng and enjoying all his works : Is not 
the whole Condition ( of minj fubadminiftred by thefe,~\ 
And after [ We may not call thofe fenfes into queftion, 
left Chrift himfelf muft deliberate of their certainty 
( or muft diftruft them ), Left it may be faid y that he 
falfty faw Satan caft down from Heaven , or falfty 
heard the voyce of his Father teftifying of him -, or was 

deceived when he touched Ptters Wives Mother 

or perceived not a true tafte of the Wine which he Con- 
fccrated in the memorial of his blood, J Many fuch 
places are in Tertullian. 

4. Origen is large and plain to the fame purpofe in 
Matth.25. calling it [Bread and a Typical and Symbo- 
lical Body, which profiteth none but the worthy receiv- 
ers, and that according to the proportion of their faith y 
and which no wicked man doth eat, &c. ] Many more 
fuch places Albertinus vindicateth. • 

5. Cyprians Epiftk to Magnm is too large this way 
to be recited* As [" Even the Sacrifices of the Lord 
declare the Qiriftian Vnanimity, connexed by firm and 
infeparable love : For when the Lord calleth Bread his 
body ( or his body bread ) made up of many united 
j grain*, &c. And when he calleth the Wine his Bloody 
I &c. ~\ So Epift. ad CiciU 

6. Eufebi us C<c far. demon ftr. Evang, I. i.e. 10. £ Ce- 
[ lebrating daily the memorial of the body and blood of 

Chrift L _J [Seeing then we receive the memorial of 

this Sacrifice to be perfected on the Table •, by the [yrn- 


boh of his body and mo ft precious blood ] And 

/. 8* \_He delivered to us to ufe, Bread as the fymbol 
of his own body. ] 

7. Athanafius's words arc recited by Albert inns L 2. 
p. 400, 401,^. 

8. Bafil. de Spir.Santt. faith, \_Which of the Saints 
hath left us in Writing the words of invocation , 
Vphen the Bread of the Eucharift, and the Cup of blef- 
fing are fiuwed ? J 

9. Ephrem (in Biblioth. Vhotii p. 425. Edit. Auguft.) 
faith, [_The body of Chrift , W&c£ believers receive , 
/0/rt^ #0*" to fenfible fubftance , <#W zj /wr feparated 
from the intelligible grace. 3 

And ^ eos qui filii Dei, &c £ T^J^ ^of /V? diligent- ' 
ly hove taking Bread in his hands , /?<? blejfed it , tftfd/ 
£r#£e z>> for a figure of his immaculate body, and he 
bleffed the Cup and gave it to his Difciplcs as a figure 
of his pretious blood* ] 

10. Cyrillus ( vel. Johan. ) HierofoL Catech. My- 
flag, calls the bread indeed Chrifts body, but fully ex- 
pounds himfelf de (fhryfmate, Cat. ?>.pag. 255. [_ For as 
the Bread of the Eucharift, after the invocation of the 
Holy Ghoft, is no more (fommon Bread, but is the Body 
of Chrift : So alfo this Holy Oyntment is no more mcer 
Oyntment, nor (if any one had rather fo fpeah^) com- 
mon, now it is cvnfecrated . but it is a Gift (or Grace) 
which caufcth the pre fence of Chrift and the Holy 
Ghoft •, that is, of his Divinity. J As the Oyntment is 
Grace, or the Holy G^oft, jufx fo the Bread is the body 
of Chrift, as he faith after Cat. 4. It is not only what we 
fee ( Bread and Wine ) but more. 

11. HieromcGKT. jovinicuuU 2- The Lord as a type 
(or figure ) of his blood] offered not water but wine. 

12. Ambrofe de Sacram. L 4. c. 4. [_ This tforefore 
we ajfert 7 How that which vs Bread, cm yet be the body 


( 143 > 

i of Chrift. ] And [ If Chrift sfpeech hadfo much 

\ force , that it made that begin to be which was not, 

how much more is it operative , that the things that 

were, both Be , and be changed into fomething elfe. ] 

And [ As thou haft drunks the fimilitude of death , fa 

\ thou drinks ft the fimilitude of pretious blood. J 

1 3. Theodoni t n Dialog. Immutab. dealeth with an 
Eutychian Heretick, who defended his Error by plead- 
ing that the bread in the Euchartft was changed into the 
body of Chrift : To whom faith Theodoret, [The Lord 
who hath called that meat and bread which is naturally 
his Body, and who again called hiwfelf a Vine, did 
honour the vftble figns with the appellation of his body 
and blood; not having changed their Nature, bat ad- 
ded Grace to Nature. J 

And in Dialog 2. In confuf. he faith, £ The divine 
Myfteries are figns of the true body, j And again, 
anfvvering the Eutychians pretence ot a change he faith, 
Q By the net which thou haft made , art thou taken, 
fij* For even after the Consecration, the Alyftical figns 
change not their nature : For they remain in all their 
fir ft SVBSTANCS, figure and form, and are Vifible , 
and to be Handled as before. But they are under flood 
to be the things which they were made, and are believ- 
ed and venerated as made that which they are believed 
I to be. ~\ Would you have plainer words? 

14. Gelafius com. Nefi. & Eutych. faith, £ Verily 
the Sacraments of the body and blood of Chrift which 

\ we take, is a Divine thing, for which and by which we 
are made partakers of the divine nature, (§* And yet 
it ceafeth not to be the Sub fiance and Nature of Bread 
and Wine, And certainly the Image and fimilitude of 
the body and blood of Chrift are celebrated in the atliort 
of the Myfteries. ~\ What can be plainer ? 


15. Cyril. Alcxandr. in John 4. cap. 14. faith, \_He 
gave to his believing difciples fragments of Br cad, faying i 
Take, Eat, This is my body. J 

16. Facundus lib. 9. cap. 5. pag. 404. fas cited by 
P. Molin. de Novitate Papifmi ) V We call that the 
body and blood of Qorift which is the Sacrament of his 
body, in the confecrated Bread and £up* O Not that 
the Bread is properly his body, and the Cup his blood 9 
but becaufe they contain the Myfterie of his body and 
blood* ] 

But I am fo weary of thefe needlefs Tranfcriptions, 
that I will trouble my felf and the Reader with no 
more. Albertinm will give him enow more who de- 
iireth them : And no doubt but with a wet finger they 
can blot out all thefe, and teach us to deny thefenfe 
of words, as well as our fcnfes. 

D. Butyoufaid alfo, that the Prefent Church and its 
Tradition is again ft Tranfubjtantiation^ as well as the 
Antient : How prove you that ? 

R. Juft as I prove that the Proteftants are againft it* 
By the prefent fourch, I mean the far greater part of 
all the Chriftians in the world. The Greeks with the 
Mufcovites, the Armenians, the Syrians, the Copties, 
the Abaflines, and the Proteftants , and all the reft 
who make up about twice or thrice as many as the 

That they hold that there is true Bread and Wine 
after Consecration, all impartial Hiftonans teftifie, both 
Papifts and Proteftants , and their own feveral Coun- 
treymen ^ and alfo Travellers who have been among 
them. And their Liturgies, even thofe that are in the 
Bibliotheca Patrum put out by themfelves , do teftifie 
tor thofe Counrreys where they are ufed ( Though as 
Bilhop V flier hath detected ) by one words addition, 
ihev have (hameleftv endeavoured to corrupt the Ethi- ■ 

c x 45 ; 

opick Liturgy about the Real f re fence. ) But I need 
no more proof of that which no fairhiul HiHory doth 

And then I need not prove, that Tranfubftantiation 
is againftthe mod General or Common Tradition; 
For all thefe Chriftians, :he Greeks, Armenians, Abaf- 
fines, &c. profefs to follow the Religion which they 
have received from their Anceftors , a*, well as the 
Papjfts do : And if the Papifo be to be believed in 
faying that this is the Religion which they received 
from their forefathers, Why flflp rot the other to be 
believed in the fame cafe ? And ifthePopifh Tradi- 
tion feem regardable to them, Way (hould not the 
Tradition of twice or thrice as many Chriftians be 
more regardable ? And if in Councils, the Major Vote 
muft carry it • Why not in the Judgeroeitf and Tra- 
dition of the Real body of Chrifts Church ? As for 
their trick of excepting againft them as Schifraaticks 
and Hereticks , to invalidate their Votes and Judge- 
ment, we defpife it, as knowing that fo any Ufurper 
that would make himfelf the fole Judge, may fay by all 
the reft of the world : But as they judge of others, they 
are juftly judged by others themfeives* 




The fecond fart of the fintroverfie , Whether it be 
Chrifis very Flcjh and Blood into which the Bread and 
Wine are Tranfubflanttated. 

R. /^\Ur firft Queftion was, Whether there be any 
\J Bread and Wine left after Confecration ; Our 
fecond is, Whether Chrifis Real Flefli and Blocdce there , 
as that into which the Bread andWme are changed? 

And herein i. I do freely grant, that th? change of 
Chrifts Body by Glorification is fo gieai , as that it 
may be called, though not a Spirit, yet a fphitaal body, 
as Paul, i Cor. 15. fauh Ours when Glorified fhall be ^ 
that is , A body very like in puri :y , fimplicity, and 
activity to a Spirit : And the general d.inrence be- 
tween a fpirit and body was not held by many of the 
Greek Fathers as it is by us : And if the fecond Coun- 
cil of Nice was Infallible, no Angel or oiher Crea- 
ture is Incorporeal : Or as Damafus faith, [_ They are 
Corporeal in refpeft to God, but Incorporeal in re- 
fpect to grofs bodies. ] The perfed knowledge of ihe 
difference between Corf us arid Sfiritus . except by the 
formal Virtue?, is unknown to mortal men. 

2. 1 grant therefore, that our fenfes are no Compe- 
tent Judges, Whether Chrifis true body be in the Sacra- 
ment? no more than Whether an Angel be in this room ? 
There are bodies which are Invifible. 

3. I grant thac it is unkno vn to us, how far Chrifts 
Glorified body may extend? Whether the fame may be 

to confute them that fay, Light is a 'Body j nor them 
that fay, It is a [fir it : nor them that fay, It is quid 
medium as a nexus of both : I mean aether or Ignis , vi- 
fible in its Light. And it is an incomprehenfible won- 
der, if Lumen be a real radiant or Emanant part of the 
Sun, that it fhould indivifibly fill all the fpace thence to 
this earth, and how much further little do we know. So 
for the extenfions of Chrifts body* let thofe that un- 
der ftand it difpute for me* 

4* And I will grant that it is very probable that 
as in Heaven we fhall have both a Soul and 'Body., 
fo the Body is not like to have fo near an Intuition 
and fruition of God as the foul. And whether the 
Glorified Body of Chrifi will not be there a medium of 
Gods Communication of Glory to our bodies, yea and 
his .glorified foul to our fouls, as the Sun is now to our 
eyes, I do not well underftand : only I know that it is 
his prayer and will, that we be with him where he is to 
behold his Glory • and that God and the Lamb will be 
the Light of the Heavenly Jerufalenu 

5. And I am fully fatisfied that it is not the figns only, 
but the Real Body and Blood of Chrift, which are given 
us in the Sacraments fboth Baptifm and the Eucharift) : 
But how given iu ? Relatively, de jure \ as a man is Gi- 
ven to a Woman in Marriage ^ or as a houfe and land 
are delivered to me, to be mine for my ufe •, though I 
touch them not. Thus 1. A right to Chrift is given 
us : 2* And the fruits or benefits of his Crucified body 
and (bed blood* are actually given us, that is> Pardon and 
the Spirit, merited for us thereby. 

6. And among the Benefits given us, befides the Re- 
lative, there are fome fuch as we call Real or Thyfical 
terrri natively, and hy per phy fie al originally ut a Caufa, 
which are the fpirit of Holmefs, or the Quickening, 
Illuminating and Santlifying influence of the fpirit of 

(i 4 8) 

Chrift upon our fouls. And the Sacrament is appointed 
as a fpeciai means of communicating this* 

7. I have met wiih fome of late who fay, that Indeed 
Chnfts Body and Blood in his humbled ftate, were not 
reaily eaten and drunk by the difciples, at his laft fupper : 
For the flejh prohteth not to fuch a afe : But that his 
Glorified Body is fpiritu^l, and is extenfively commu- 
nicated, and invillbly prtfent under the form of Bread 
in the Sacrament •, and thit as we have a 2Wy, ^ fen- 
fitive life , and an Intelleciualfoul, fo Chrift is the lite of 
all thefe refpe&ively - 5 viz,Mi$ "Body is made the fpiritu- 
al noun foment of our 'Bodies •, his fenfinve foul ( for 
which the word Blood is put, becaufeit is in the blood in 
animals ) is the food or life of our feniitive fouls -, and 
his Intellectual foul, of ours : And to thefe ufes they 
afTert the Real pre feme and oral participation of Chrifts 
Glorified body. 

To all which I fay, 1. Whether or how far an in- 
vifible fpiritual'Body is prefent ) Xenfe is no judge ^ nor 
can we know any further than Gods word tetieth us. 
2. That Chrift in his Glorified foul and Body is our In- 
terccfiour with God, through whom we have all things, 
we muft not doubt. 3 .That Chrift in his Humane and Di- 
vine Na ure now in Heaven, is that Teacher who hath leit 
us a certain word,and that King who hath left us a perfect 
Law of Life, whom we mud obey, and a promife which 
we muft truft, we muft not queftion. 4. That the Ho- 
ly Ghoft who is our fpiritual Life, is given us £y, from 
and for Chrift our Mediator, we muft take for certain 

Bu:, though in all thefe refpe&s, Faith apprehendeih 
and liveth upon Chrift, yet that moreover his Glorified 
'Body in fubftance , either feedeth or by contact purih'eth 
our Bodies, and his fenfitive foul, our fenfuive foul?, 
and his Intellectual foul, our Intellectual fouls, as if in 


them/elves, and nor in their effects only they were thus 
communicated to us, I understand not, either by any 
juft conception of the thing it felf, or any proof of it 
from the word of God. But if any can help me to fee 
it, I fhall not refiife inflruftion. 

Nor can I kc why the foul of Chrift fhould be faid 
to be given in the Wine only, and not in the 'Bread ; 
Nor why by this kind of Communication he may not as 
truly be faid to be given us in other Ordinances as in 
the Eucharift ; Nor know I what they mean by the 
Forms of bread and wine, under which they fay that 
Chrifts Body and blood is given : But I am paft doubt 
that Bread and Wine are ftill really in fubftance 

And whereas the fame men fay that It is Chrifts 
humbled Hefh and blood as facrificed on the Crofs that 
is Q>mmemcrated, but his Glorified Body and foul only 
which are Communicated and Received, I muft fay, 
i. That Chrift plainly tells us of his Giving m his 
Sacrificed Body or flcjh it felf to eat, as he is the Lamb 
of God that taketh away the fins of the World : And he 
faith, Take , Eat, this is my Body which is broken for 
you, &c. fo that the fame body is Commemorated and 
Communicated : But how Communicated ? In the iffclis 
of his facrifice: \{\%Body wa> given a facrifice to God 
for us, and the fruits of that facrifice given to us. 
And thus he was given a facrifice for the life cf the 
world-, And thus we do receive him : By our bodily 
taking and eating the Bread, we profefs that our fouls 
take him to be our Saviour and Caufe oi our Life, both. 
as Purchafing mdMeriting'u on Earth, and Interceding 
and Communicating it in and from Heaven. 

2. And this Doftrine will not ferve the Papiftsturn, 
who tell us that Bread and Wine are ceafrd, and that: 
Chrifts very flefh and blood is there, into which all the 

fubftance of the bread and wine are turned \ and that 
his natural Body before his death, was in the fame fort 
given under the forms of Bread and Wine as now • and 
will not be beholden to this fubterfuge. 

And indeed it is ftrange if the Sacrament at the firfl 
Jnflitution fhould be One things and ever after another 
thing • and that the "Bread ihould ever fince be turned 
into Chriflsbody, upon the Priefts Confecration, and not 
be turned into it, (becaufe not yet glorified) upon his 
own words [This is my 'Body.} Therefore we muft let 
this go, and fpeak of what they own and hold indeed. 
And as for any other Bodily prefcnce, influence or com- 
munication of Chrifts Body or SohI^ beddes that which 
they call Tranfubftantiation, we have nothing to do with 
it in this Controverfie, 

That the fubftance ohhcBread and Wine is not turned 
into the fubftance of [hefleflj and blood ofChrift,is proved. 

I f Becaufe the Glorified Body of Chrift is not for- 
mally and proper lyFlefi and Blood .'Though it be the f me 
Body which was flejh and Blood. The Apoftle Paul 
faith, I Cor. 15. 50, 51. [ Now this I fay, brethren, 
that flejh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, 
nor doth corruption inherit in corrupt ion ^ Behold, I pew 
you amyfterie : We pall not all flee p, but we Jhall all be 
changed.} It is not only Dr. Hammond, but other of 
the be ft expofltors who (hew that by Fkfo and blood and 
corruption here is not meant fin. but flejh and blood for- 
mally confidcrcd • which is ever corruptible : And the 
Papifts commonly confrfs this. If therefore it be flejlj 
and blood which the bread arA wine are turned into, then 
either Chrift hath two bodies, or two parts of one, 
which are utterly heterogeneal, one flejh and blood, and 
the other not -, one corruptible "and the other incorru- 

1 1, And this feigneth Chrift to be often Incarnate, 

tv r en 


even thoufands and millions of times - y And to lay down 
that Incarnate body again as oft as it corrupteth, and to 
take up a new one as eft as the Pricft pleafe . and yet all 
but one. Whereas the Church and Scripture have ever 
told us but of one Incarnation of Jefus Chrift. 

HI. A:id it is exprefly contrary to his promife Joh. 
6. 51. I am the living bread wh;ch came down from 
heaven : If any man eat of this bread, he jhall live for 
ever: And the bread which I give is my flcfr which I 
will give for the life of the world — - — v. 34. Who fo 
eatetb my flifr ar.d drtnketh my blood hath eternal 

life j-fc that cateth my fiefr and drink eth my 

blood, dwelleth in me and I in him. As the living fa- 
ther hath fent me, and I live by the Father, fo he that 

Eateth me, even he frail live by me He that eat- 

eth of this bread frail live for ever /] Thefe are 

the exprefs promifes ot Cnrift. But the Papifts fay 
that wicked men and unbelievers eat the flefr of Qorifty 
who (hall not live for ever, nor have eternal life, nor 
dwell in Chrift, but are more miferable by their hypo- 

I pafs by abundance of other arguments, becaufe 
commonly ufed, and thefe are as many as my ends re- 
quire ^ and I would make the Reader no more work 
than needs, 



'Tile Conclttftjii of the frft 'Booj^ : The Cattfes of Po- 

A T Hive now made plain to you, i.What the Pro- 
I tcfranu Religion is y ( or at leaft my own, and all 
that I perfwade you or any other to embrace. ) 2. And 
alio that it is granted to be ail true by the generality e£ 
the Papifb fas is explained and proved. ) 5. And I 
have told you, by an enumeration of fome particulars, 
why I am not a Papi ft, and why I do diflWade you 
from k. 4. And I have made good my fait charge , in 
xht point of Tranfubftantiation, if any thing in the 
world can be proved. The fecond I fhall leave till 
another time, viz. Tofncw youhow hr their Religion 
(as- Popiih ) is from Infallible Certainty ^ and what 
horrid confufion is among them ; and how they have 
done much to promote Infidelity in the world, by 
bttfMing Religion upon fome notorious untruths, and 
upon a multitude of utter uncertainties. Though I doubt 
not but among them there are many true Clinicians, 
who practically refolv* their faith into the furer evi- 
dences of Divine Revel ation, yet I fhall clearly prove to 
you, that all thofe whofe practical faith is no furer 
or better, than the notional opinions of their Divines 
will allow, have no certain faith or Religion at all : 
And what impudency U k to make men believe, that 
there is no certainty of Religion to be had, but in their 
way, who build their Religion upon fuch a multitude cf 
uncertainties and certain ialihoods, as will amaze you 
when I come to open them to you, viz,, that ever fo 


many Learned men, and pcrlons or all ranks, can be 
induced fo to jeft in the matters of their falvation. 

And if I be not by death or other greater work pre- 
vented, I hope in order to make good all the reft of the 
Charges before mentioned, which are our Rcafons againft 
the Popilli way of Religion. Inthe mean time tell me 
what you think cf that which is already faid. 

D. I know not how to confute what you have faid : 
And yet when I hear them on the other fide, me thinks 
their tale feems fair,and I cannot anfwer them neither: fo 
that between you both, we that are unlearned are in a fad 
cafe, who muft thus be toft up and down by the difputati- 
ons of difagreeing Priefts,fo that w r e know not what a man 
may fay is certain. 

R. to this I have fevera! things to fay j i. Ordina- 
tion doth not make men wife, holy, humble and felf-de- 
*ying ^ but fets fuch men apart for the facred office, 
who feek it, and have tolerable g:fts of utterance : And 
it is too ordinary for worldly minded men, to make a 
worldly trade of the Priefthood, meerly for cafe, and 
wealth, and honour. In which cafe, do you not think 
that the Papifts who have multitudes of rich benefices, 
prelacies, preferments, and Church-power, and worldly 
honour, are liker to be drawn by worldly intereft, than 
fuch as I that am exceeding glad and thankful, if I might 
but preach for nothing ? 

2. Do you lay your faith and falvation upon plaufible 
difcourfes ? and will you be of that mans faith, whom 
you cannot confute ? Then you mult be of tvery mans 
with : or indeed of no mans. There are none of all 
thefe feds, fo hardly confuted, as a Porpijyry, a JnUan 
or fuch like Infidels who difpute againft c£r$ft f and the 
truth of the Scriptures ? or fuch S.idd'jcees as difpute 
againft the Immortality of the foul. Alas, the tattle of 
Papifts, Pelagians, Antinomians, Separating Quakers, 
. • and 

and all iucn, iuppoiing tne trutn or tne joins immorta- 
lity and the Scriptures, is eafily refilled and confuted, in 
companion of their alTauIts who deny thefe our foun- 
dations. And will you turn Sadducee, Atheift or Infidel 
becaufe you cannot confute their Sophiilry ? I tell you, 
if you knew how much harder it is, to deal with one of 
thefe than with a Papift or any other Sectary, you 
would (hake the head, to hear one man difpute for an 
univerfal Monarch, and another difpute againft a form 
of prayer, and another whether it be lawful to Commu- 
nicate with dl (Tenters, &c while fo few of them all can 
defend their foundations, even the fonts Immortality and 
the Scriptures , nor confute a fubtle Infidel or Sadducee. 

3 . What if we all agreed to fay that there is no Bread 
in ;he Sacrament after Confecration > Were it ever the 
truer for that ? Will you be deceived as oft as men 
can but agree to deceive you ? There is a far greater 
party Agreed againft. Jefus Chrift ( even Rve parts of 
the World ) than that which is agreed for him : Will 
you therefore be againft Chrift too? There are more 
Agreed for Mahomet ( a grofs upftart deceiver ) thaa 
are agreed for Chrift : And doth that make it certain 
that they are in the right? 

4. Will you deny all your fenfes, and the fenfes of 
all the World, as oft as you cannot anfwer him that 
denyeththem? Upon thefe terms, what end will there 
be of any Con:roverfie, or what evidence fhall ever 
fatisfie man } Have Papifts any furer and more fatisfy- 
ing evidence for you, than fenfe ? 

I pray you tell me • Did you ever meet with any of 
them that doubt of anothtr life, or of the Immortality of 
the foul ? 

JD. Y~es, many a one : I would we were all more cer- 
tain than we are. 

*, And 

a. Ana what is it that iucli men would have to put 
hem out of doubt ? 

D. They fay that our talk of Prophets and fuperna- 
ural revelation are all uncertainties • and if they could 
ccy they would believe. Could they fee fuch Miracles 
s they read of : Had they feen Laz^artu raifed , or 
Jhrift rifen from the dead, &c. Had rhey feen Angels 
t Drvilsor Spirits appearing: Had they feen Heaven 
)r Hell, they would believe. 

R. And are not you more obftinate than they, if 
/ou will not believe that there is any Bread and Wine y 
vhen you fee 7 feel, fmell } and tafie it, and all men that 
lave fenfes are of the fame mind ? What is left to fa- 
is fie you, if you give fo little credit to the common 
enfe of all the world ? 

D. But I ofc think that the faith of all the (fhurch 
s much furer than my fenfe, or my private faith ? At 
eaft: it is fafeft to venture in the common road, and to 
"peed as the Church fpeedeth, which Chrill: died for, 
md is his Spoufe. 

R. i. But do you think that the opinion of the Papal 
: afrion who are not the third part of the Univerfal 
Church, that is, the Chriftian world, is the faith of all 
\be Church f Why call you Opinion faith ? and a fed: 
*nd faction, All the Church f 

2, Indeed if all the Church did fet their fenfes 
igainft mine, I would rather believe them than my 
fenfes : For I fhould think, that I were in that point 
'diftra&ed , or my fenfes by fome difeafe perverted > 
which I did not perceive : I mean if it were in a cafe 
where they had the affirmative : As if all England 
fhould witnefs that they faw it Light at Midnight, I 
would think my eyes had fome impediment which I 
knew not of, if I faw none. But this is not your cafe . 
The Papifts thetnfelves do not fet all their fenfes againft 

yours : 

y6urs : mucn leis the lenies ct all mankind : They do 
not fay, chat [IVe and all wen^ except the Protcftants^do i 
fee , and feci , and tafie that Thtrc is no Bread and' 
Wine. 2 But contrarily, You have the [cafes of all 
the world, and the faith jot two or three parts of the 
Chriftian world, againft rhc Opinion of one Se&, which 
Schifmatically call themfelves All the Church. 

D. But fuppofe that they trr in this one point, they 
may for ail that be in the right in all the reft : Who is 
it that hath no en\;r ? I mull not fur this one forfake 

k. u I will ftand to their own judgements in this^ 
Whether all their foundation and faith be not uncettain, 
if any one Article of their faith prove falfe? They are 
all ( that ever I knew ) agreed of the affirmative : And 
wili gW^ you no thanks \m fuel) a defence, 
• 2. And if we come to that work, I 111 all prove all 
the reft of their opinions before mentioned to be alfo 


'Z>. What then if I find but one point falfe in the 
Proteftants Religion ? Muft I therefore forfake it all 

R. i. Still remember to diftingunh between our 
Ob,cttvvc and our Subjcllive faith : or if you under- 
ftand not tliofe word-. , between Gvds Revetatiqn and 
Mans Bdi rf of it : or the Divine Ride arid Matter of 
our faiih, and our faith it feif. And about our own 
Belief you muft diftingutih between St mans ftdfeffcm of 
Belief and die Reality of his belief. 

All true Proteftants prefrf to take Gods word alone, 
or his Revelation in Nature and Scripture , for the 
whole Matter of their Divine Belief and Religion. 
Bur who it is that pneercly bclicvcth little do I know : 
ntT how much of this word any lingular pcrfon under- 
ftandetlu and believetb, I can give vou no account of. 



If perfonal faith were that which we difpute of, I would 
be accountable for r.o nuns but mine own. In this 
fend", There are as many Faiths and Religions as men : 
For every man hath Ils Own Faith and Religion : And 
if you know thai a man erreth in one point, itfollow- 
eth not that he erreth in another. They that believed 
that the Rcfirreiiion was paft , believed a fallhood : 
and yet truly believed thai Chrifi was the Mefflah : 
They erred that thought it lawful to eat things offered 
to Idols • and yet they erred not in believing in (^hrift. 
No two men in the world, its like, have the lame de- 
gree of perfonal faith and knowledge • as I ofi faid be- 
fore. But tf our profefTed ohjett of faith , that is, 
Gods wordy were falfe in one thing, we could not be 
fure that it were true in any thing. 

Yet here I told you before, i . That a man may be 

much furer that one fart of Scripture is Godswordjhan 

mother •, becaufe fome Copies are doubtful in the di- 

/erfe Readings of fome panicuiar words or fente rices ; 

and which of them that fo differ is Gods word, we oft 

l know not : But fo much as we are fure is the word of 

God, we are fure is true : So if the Authority of fome 

*tw bocks was once doubted of, ( as 2 Pet. Jam. jud* 

Hcb. &c.) and yet be by any, it lolloweth not that they 

loubt of the truth of any, which th^y know :o be the 

vordof God. 2. Or if any do hold char the Penmen 

might be left to ihcir ntural fallibility in fome by-hi- 

|torical circumftances or words, it would not follow, 

jhat one Article of the Gofpel or Chriftian faith is doubt- 

|iil, which is plainly as the Kernel of it, delivered in all 

he Scriprure, and alfo by infallible Univerfal Tradhi- 

>n, by it fe!f y in the Sacrament , Creed, Lords Prayer 



And our cafe alfo much differcth from the Papifts in 
this : For Weprofefs that our objective faith, ( Gods 
word ) is Infallible, and we are Infallible fo far as we 
believe it : But we confefs that we are lvable to w;/- 
■underftand fome parts of it ^ and fo far are fallible, as 
being imperfect : But the Papifts fay, that their Pope and 
Councils and Univerfal-/Vvi#*cfrj are perfonally Infal- 
lible^ fo as not to be lyable to any mi funder (landing of 
any Article of faith (iayfome) or Article of Catholic!^ 
faith ( fay others ) : And fo they make their own A& 
of Believing to be Commenfurate and equally certain 
with Gods word of faith-, and therefore they allow you 
to queftion them in all, if they err in one, as pretending 
to a gift of never erring in any. 

Z>. But is it not a great reafon to incline us to 
them rather than to you , when They only pretend to 
Infallibility , and You confefs that you are all fallible in 
your Belief? 

R. This is to be the fubjed of our next Conference, 
and therefore not now to be anticipated •, only I (hall tell 
you, that It is a meer noife of ambiguous wcrdsto de- 
ceive the heedlefs that cannot fearch out the meaning of 
them. I. We not only Pretend^ but Profefs and prove 
that our forifti-an Religion is altogether Infallible, Por 
which end I have written divers Treatifes my felf. 
2. And we profefs that all the myftical Church of Chrift 
( that is all fincere Chriftians ) do truly and Infallibly 
believe all that is SjfcntialtoChnflianity, and as much 
of the Integrals as they can know. 3. And we profefs 
that the Catholkk^Church-Vifble (that is, Jll prfcT- 
fors of ' ftriflianity in the world ) do profefs all • 
Ejfentials ot Chrifiianity , and are Infallible. ■ thii 

But we hold wixhall 5 that there is no particular 


Church, or Bifiop, no Synod or Council, that is /* /#- 
fallible, but that, i.They that hold to the Eflentials 
may mifunderftand and err about fome Integrals : 
2. Andthofe per fans have no Certainty that they fhall 
not err by Hcrefie or Apoftacy from Lhe Eflentials 
thcmfelves : So that thtfl?urch\s lnfJUble, becaufe it 
is ejfcntiated by believing an Infallible Word • which 
whoever believeth not, ceafeth to be of the Church: 9 
not Gods Word infallible , becaufe the Church cr any 
number of men believe it, or fay Its true : For Truth 
is before Knowledge and Faith : As Arifiotle was a 
Philofopher, becaufr he under flood and uught the do- 
ctrine of real Philofophy :, and not that dodrine cal- 
led Phyficks or Philofophy, becaufe that Anflotle knew 
or taught it. 

But, alas, What work fhall I (hew you when I come 
to open their bewildring uncertainties ? 

D. But to deal i'reely with you, methinks their way 
of meafuring out the Neceflaries in Faith and Religion 
according to mens various parts and opportunities , 
feemeth to me more fatisfa&ory than yours, who fix 
upon certain points ( as ihe Bapttfr.al Covenant ) as 
Eflentials. For there is great diverfity of mens Ca- 

R. This cometh from confounding feveral Queftions 
as if they were all one. 

1. It is one Q^eftion , What is the Qariftian Reli- 
gion ? 

2. £>Itis another Quefticn, Whether the Chriftian 
Religion be abfoluteiy neceflarv to the falvation of 
all rhofe to whom it was never competently reveal- 
ed ? 

3. And it is another Queftion , Whether more than 
the Eflentials of Chriftian Religion be not neceflary 


to the falvation of many who have opportunity te 
know more ? Alas, what work doth Confufion make 
in the world | 

To the h'rft, It is evident that as Mahometanifm is 
a thing which may be defined , fo much more may 
fortftianity : Who that writeth of the feveral Reli- 
gions of the world, Ethnick, Jewiih, Mahometan, and 
Chriftian, do not take them to be diftinguifhable and 
difcemablc ? Efpecially when Chrift hath fummed up 
Chriftianity into a Covenant , and given it us in ex- 
prefs words , and affixed a flat promife of falvation 
to the true Covenanters , and the Church hath ever 
called our Baptifm , our Chriftening f Is Chriftiani- 
ty Nothing ? If Something, Why may it not be de- 
fined, and differenced from all falfe Religions ? And 
if fo, It hath its EfTential Conftitutive parts. All this 
is plain to Children that will fee. 

2. And then as to the fecond queftion , it concern- 
ed not our Controverfie at all. It is but Whether any 
Infidels may be faved ? Or any that are no Chrifti- 
ans > And if it could be proved , that: any are faved 
that are no Chriftians , do you thereby prove that 
they are Chriftians , or members of the Chriftian 
Church ? or that Chriftianity is not a Religion which 
may be defined ? 

3. And as to the third queftion, We are on all fides 
agreed in it, That they that have more than the naked 
Effentials of Chriftianity revealed to them aptly , are 
bound to believe more : Yea, it is hardly conceive- 
able that any one fhould know and believe the Effen- 
tials only, and no more : It is not EfTential to the 
Chriftian Covenant or Chriftianity to know that the 
Name ofChrifts Mother was Mary \ or that Pontius 
PiUte was the man that condemned him ■ And if 


an Ignorant man thought that his continuance in the 
Grave was four dayes , I do not think that this 
would damn his foul to Heii : ( Mi ch lefs the not be- 
lieving that Mary dyed a Virgin. ) And yet it is 
not like that any nian lhould come to the EfTentials 
of Chriftianity by any fuch way, as ihould acquaint 
him with no one of theie, or any point befides the faid 

And yet it is certain for all this , that he that tru- 
ly receiveth the EJJentzals , and is true to the Baptif- 
mat Covenant y fl)*U be faved, whatfoever elfe he want ; 
But it is as true, that he that Receiveth the Effentials, 
will ( from the fame principles and obligations J re- 
ceive more , when it is aptly notified to him ; And 
he that truly Covenanteth , will honeftly keep the 
Covenant he maketh • which bindeth !}im ftill to learn 
of Chrift; But if any man be faved without the EJJen- 
tials y he muft be faved without Chriftianity. 

D. But you know that they diftinguifh of faith 
Expltcite and Implicite : He may be Implicitely a 
Chriftian that believeth not the E/Tentials Explicitely ± 
as long as he believeth that which would infer them, 
if they were made known to him to be indeed the 
Word of God. 

Ri Thus do Words abufe and cheat the ignorant : 
Could you but read their own Dr. Holden before cited 
in his Analyf. fid. you would find this diftindion 
juftly rendred by him fhamefui and ridiculous, ac- 
cording to their common fenfe and ufe of it . and the 
truer fenfe delivered and vindicated. An Implicite 
faith or Knowledge we confefs to be true, as it is op- 
po fed to i. Adijlintl, or 2. To a well-expreffed faith 
or Knowledge. For it is Implicite, (r> 1. As to the 
Objett, when a man knoweth the whole matter, but not 

M by 

by diftinB farts : As a man may know a Cup of wa- 
ter, and not know how many drops or drams it is . 
or he may know a fentence , and not know how ma- 
ny letters are in it. 2. Or it is Imf licit e as to the 

Ait-, when it is yet but a 
Apply this to Mr. johnfom Re- crUC ( e imperfeft conception, 

loynder on this Point, ana you • % , . • „ , ' 

will fee his vaity. and the thing is really known, 

but not the Logical notions, 
or Grammatical names, either the verba oris or men- 
tis by which it fhould be exprefled : So that the 
man cannot notifie his knowledge to another. Thefe 
two are called Implicite; the firft fignifieth Confrfed 
and General Knowledge, and the other Imperfetl and 

But to call thvxlmplicite faith or knowledge, which 
extendeth only to fome Principles , and not to the 
Conchifons themfelves , is 1. To Call No-knowledge 
and faith , by the name of knowledge and faith. 
2. And by their application to confound the World 
and the Qourch, and to make all the Infidels and Hea- 
thens to be Chriftians , and every Fool a Philofo- 

For, 1. All men of Reafon know thefe two Princi- 
ples (who own a God), I. That God is not a Iyer, 
bat all his Word is Trite. 2. That all the Truths in 
the world are God's, fome way or other revealed by 
him. Therefore, if they knew that the Gofpel were 
Gods word, they would believe it : or if they knew 
it to be one of thofe Truths that are in the world, 
they would take it to be of God. And thus all Infi- 
dels, and Turks, and Pagans may ( by fuch abufe ) be 
called hnplicite Chriftians. 

But why then do the Papifts burn the Protectants! 
when if their Religion were true , wc are all lmpli- 


citely rapijts. hor we believe, i. lhat all Divine 

Revelations are True • 2. And that ali thofe are In- 

I fallible whom God hath promifed to make Infallible ; 

3. And that all thofe mull be believed and obeyed 
whom God hath commanded us to believe and obey ► 

4. And that we muft not forfake that Church which 
God hath commanded us to adhere to -, 5. And that 
ail our Lawful Pallors muft be reverenced and fub- 
mitted to ^ 6. And all their lawful Precepts obeyed, 
7. And all Gods Sacraments holily ufed ^ 8. And 
all Traditions from the Apoftles to the Churches 
received • with many more fuch : Only we .know 
hot that the Popmis our Paftor , or that his Coun- 
cils are the Churcn, or have a promife of Infalli- 
bility i and fo of the reft. And yet we muft burn 
for it, if they can procure it. And yet he is a. true 
believer Implicitely who believeth not the EfTentiais of 

But the Dcfign which is predominant here .is too 
vifible , when this Implicke faith cometh to be de- 
ferred : For it is not a Belief in GW, or in Chrift 
only that will ferve the turn, but it muft be a belief 
in the Qhurch, and their Church, and their Pope too, 
or elfe it will not do. The Implicite faith is the 
explicite belief of thefe three Articles .• 1. All Gods 
Word is true : 2. All that is Gods Word, which the 
Church tells us is Gods Word. 3. The Pope and 
his Council and Subjects are this Church. And yet 
this man muft be fuppofed if he know no more, per 
impojfibile, not to know that there is a Chrift, or who 
he. is as to his Perfon or Office, or what he hath 
done, or will do for us : And yet that he hath a 
Vicar and a Church. Or elfe they mav know Chrift 
and Chriftianity before they know that there is any 

M 2, Pope 

(i<S 4 ) 

Pope or Church , and then the Pope hath loft the 

D. But if Popery be fo fenfelefs a thing as you 
make it, how come fo great a number of perfons of 
all ranks and qualities , Kings, Nobles, Learned men, 
and Religioufly-difpofed perfons to embrace it ? Have 
not they fouls to fave or lofe as well as you ? and 
do they not lay all their hopes of Heaven upon it? 
and can iuch perfons, and fo many , be fo mad and 
fenfelefs ? 

R. Do we need thus to ramble round about , as 
if we would doubt of the tbina^W we know the 
fynfes of it ? when we fee and^Wey all confefs that 
they deny all our fenles ? Will you not believe that 
there is a Sun , till you know what it is made of ? 
Or whether the Sea ebb and flow, till you know the 
Caufes of it ? I pray you tell me, 

Q. i. Do you think that the Mahometan's is not 
a very foolifh Religion , and their foundation ( the 
pretended Million of their Prophet ) without any (hew 
of truth ; and his Alcoran ( if ever you read it ) a heap 
of Non-fenfe and Confufion ? 

D. Yes : I think it defer veth no better thoughts. 

R. And do you not know that ( though it arofe 
not till about fix hundred years after Chrift ) much 
more of the world is Mahometan than Chriftian ? 
And are there not far Greater Emperours and Princes 
Mahometans than any that are Chriftians ? And have 
not all thefe fouls to fave or lofe ? And do they not 
all venture their fouls upon that Religion ? Why then 
is not your argument here as good for Mahometa- 
nifm as for Popery? 

D, Though the Emperours of Confiantinofle , the 
Great Mogul , the Perfian , Tartarian Mahome- 

tans, &c* be all Great as to their vaft Dominions, 
yet they are barbarous and unlearned in companion 
of the Papifts. 

R. i . It is not becaufe they have not as much wit 
as we : but becaufe they think that our laborious wor- 
dy kind of learning, is an abufe of wit , and againft 
true Policy , ludicroufly or contentioufly diverting 
mens minds and time from thofe employments which 
they think more manly and profitable to the Common- 
wealth ^ Though no doubt but they do err more un- 
manly on that extreairu But I further ask you, 

i^_2. Do you not think that the Common Reli- 
gion of the Heathens is very unworthy for any 
wife man to venture his foul upon ? If yon have 
but read how it is defcribed by the Antient Chrifti- 
ans, JnftiHy Athenagoras^ Origen y Arnobius^ Minn* 
tins Foelix , Tertullian , Lnciantius , Eufebim 9 An- 
guftine^ &c. you will fay that they thought it a ridi- 
culous unmanly Religion. 

D. I think no better of it than they did. 

R. And i . Do you not know that almoft all the 
World was then Heathen and Idolaters ? Alas, what was 
Jttdta ( lefs than England) to all the world? Was 
not the Roman Empire , and Alexanders before that, 
far Greater than any Chriftian Prince hath now ? 
And to this day , are not four fixth parts of the 
whole world ( at leaft ) Heathens and Idolaters ? 
Brierwoods Calculation is, that if you divide the 
world into thirty parts , nineteen are Heathen , fix 
Mahometans , and five only Chriftians of all forts c 
befides the vaft unknown parts of the world, which 
are not like to have any Religion of fupernatural 

M 3 2, And 


2. And do you not know, that Athens and Rome- 
Heathen were no Barbarians , but of molt polite li- 
terature , and the Fathers of the Learning now in 
ufe • and that when the Chriftians arofe among 
them, they accounted them Barbarians ? And at this 
day , and long before us , the Chinenfes have been 
addicted to ,4-rts and Literature : And the Brack- 
?h.iiiu and ionz.il are no Barbarians. And have not 
a;] thefe fouls' to Live- or lofe ? And are all thefe fo 
mad as to call away their fouls upon a fenfelefs con- 
temptible Religion ?' If your' reafon be good, how 
much more will it hold for the Heathens , than the 
Papi/ls? Alas, what a handful are the Papifts in com- 
panion of the plvLnt" Idolaters ! much more. in corn- 
Rarifon of the Ant lent Heathen world, before Chri- 
fijanity and M \ihoivctanifm difpofTefled them of thofe 
which they now hold ! 
With wfiat greater fhew of advantage did the Hea- 
thens ufe the Arguments which the Papifts do now pur 
their trull: in, and lay their Caufe upon ! 

Do. i luy, talk of Antiquity I Why, it was the 
Novelty 'of Qy-ijiianity in comparifon of Heatbenifm 
through the f worfd, which was it that hardned them ra 
contemn, and perfecute it. 

2. Do tli^-.^'k cf Vnivcrfelity and Confer : v 
Alas, how little, a pan: of the world were the Chri- 
ftfians at firfr^'aud.are the Papifts now, in comparifon 
of the Heathvss, .then and now ? 

J, Do tlicy^tiaik.of Greatnd; ? Empire , Ads and.' 
Learning ,?, How. little are they as to the firft , to 
the Heathen Empires ? And tor Learning, they re- 
ceived it of them : And Arijtofle ftill is the S 
mens Oracle. And yet doubtlefs all thefe advan- 
tages are not fufilcient to difprove the follies of Hea- 


( *°7 ) 
nifm , nor the badnefs of their Religion ? And yet 
will fo much lefs ferve to fupport the credit of 
fnfelefs Popery ? 

D, But Chriftians may well expect greater helps 
fr >m God, than Heathens or Mahometans : Thereiore 
that fo many Great and Learned and Reiigious Chrifti- 
ans fhould go fuch a fenfelefc way to another world, 
methinks feemeth ftrunge. 

R. And are not Greeks, Armenians, Syrians, Abaf- 
fines and Protectants , all Chriftians as well as they ? 
Their proud fchifmarical unchriftenmg all but the 
fubje&s of the Pope, is a filly proof i.hat we are no 
Chriftians, or that they are any better than others ^ 
unlefs Malignity , uncharitablenefs and Schiim be the 
true Excellency. 

i . And are not other Chriftians More than the Pa- 
pifts ? Bifhop Bramhall reckons the Papifts to be 
about the fitlh part of Chriftians : Suppofe they be a 
third part ? They are ftill the Minor part. 

2. And are not the Proteftants as Learned as the 
Papifts ? Why then will not your argument hold 
sigainft them as well as for them ? Have not all thefe 
Chriftians fouls to fave or lofe > And do they not 
take that for the true Religion on which they truft 
their fouls ? 

jD, But though all thefe fet together are more than 
the Church of Rome , yet no one Se& of them is 
fo great • and what matter is it how many various 
Sefts are ? 

R. i. The Greek Church is judged by wife men, 
te be yet bigger than the Roman, even in this its broken 
ftate : But there is no doubt but it was much bigger 
long after the flrft divifion , before the Turk did win 
the Eaftern Empire. 

M 4 2. But, 

2. But, if it were not fo, your objection is frivo- 
lous. The Queflion is either of Different Churches, 
or of Different opinions and parties in the fame 
Church. As to the firft, There are but two opinions 
in the Chriilian world, that I know of, about the 
Conftitution of the CathoUck^Church. The one is the 
opinion of the Papifis only, £> that The Catholick^ 
Church is effentially constituted both of Chrifl, and the 
c JPope as his Vicar and universal Monarch, with a.11 
his fub jells -, as the pars Imperans and pars fib- 

The other is the judgement of all other Chriftians, 
( that I know or hear of, ) that The Catholick^ £hurch 
is effentially conflituted only of Chrifl as the fupream 
Head y or King, or pars Imperans, and his fubjetts as 
the pars fubdita s £3* And that Patriarchs, Arch- 
bifhops, Bifhops, &c, are but Officiales & fubditi 
primarii vel nobiles, cenflitutive parts indeed of 
their particular fourches (Tome humane, and fome 
Divine ) but no effential parts of the Catholic!^ 

£J* This is the Grand difference between the Papifts 
and all other Chriftians in the World, What the Catho- 
lu'K Church is I Whether it have anyConftitutive Vni~ 
verfal Head or Monarch befides Chrifl ? Now fee- 
ing that Greeks, Abaffmes, Armenians and all agree 
with us in this againft the Papifts , it is evident to 
them that are willing to fee that we are all of the 
fame Catholic}^ Church , though not of the fame 
particular Churches , nor all for the fame Offi- 
cial Minifters . Becaufe we are all for the fame Con- 
ftitutive Head, and his fibjelh as fuch, and agree in 
all the EfTential parts, tfj* So that our differences 
among all thefe parties or particular Churches or 


Countries is but the difference of Opinions and parties 
in one and the fame Church -, and not a difference 
of Catholick Churches ( which can be but one. ) 

And if that be the queftion , I undertake to 
prove that there is no one Se& of Chriftians 
known under Heaven, that hath fo many different 
opinions within ic felf, (if halffo many,} nor have 
written half fo much againft one another, as the Pa- 
pifts have done. 

3. But I muft not here anticipate my further 
work: when I come to that, I (hall (hew you how 
fmall and how disagreeing a part of the Chriftian 
world the Papifts are. I have elfcwhere recited 
the words of their Mekhior Canm who boafteth 
that the Papacy yet ftandeth, though almoil all the 
world, and befides Princes, alraoft all the Bifhops 
and Churches have fought againft it. Was it then 
the Univerfal Church ? And the words Oi." Rcynerim 
who faith, that the Churches of the Armenians and 
the others planted by the Apoftles ( wkhout the 
Empire he mear>eth ) were not under the Pope of 
Rome. I (hall, if I live to do that work, yet ful- 
lier (hew you, that the Pope was but the chief Pa- 
triarch in one Empire, as the Archbifhop of Can- 
terbury is the chief Bifhop in England \ and that 
his General Councils were but General AfTemblies 
r of the Empire ( inconfiderable occafional acci- 
dentals excepted ) , even as our Convocations, or 
the Scots General AfTemblies were, though in a 
! far larger Empire. But all this I have done already 
I in other writings,beyond all reafonabie contradiction. 
D. Tell me then, how it cometh to pafs that 
fo many Princes, Nobles, Learned men, and Re- 
ligious can be fo marvellouflv deluded? 

R. Alas 


R. Alas poor man •, You talk as if you knew 
not your felf nor mankind I how bad a thing cor- 
rupt unfan&ified nature is I Why do you not alfo 
ask, How cometh ic to pafs, that the far great- 
eft part of the World ( even five parts of fix J 
are Heathens and Mahometanes I and that moft of 
the World are wilful felf-deftroyers ; many ruining 
their very bodies, Eating, and Drinking, and Whore- 
ing, and Idling them into Gowt, Stone, Dropfies 
and an hundred Maladies : but far more ruining 
their fouls. Why do you not alfo ask, How rea- 
fonable Creatures ( of all Profeftions ) are fo worfe 
than mad, as to fell their fouls and everlafting 
hopes, for a dream and fhadow, or for dirt and 
dung j even for a few Cups or Morfels, or merry 
hours, which they know are like the mirth of 
drunkennefs, which is quickly gone, and ends in 
ficknefs and in {haute / For a great Name, and 
a large attendance in their way to the grave 1 For 
the thoughts and breath of mortal man 1 And for 
that which all men fir/t or lad, are forced to call 
meer Vanity and Vexation I Were not men mad 
in fin, had they never heard a Preacher, the fight 
of a dead Carkafs and a grave would do more to 
make them fober and confiderate, than is done 
with mod. When moft of the World will obfti- 
na.ely follow the Devil their enemy, by known 
fin to evcrlafting milery, againft all the commands, 
exhortations, promifes, threatnings, mercies and 
warnings of God himfelf, and all the perfwafions of 
their trueit friends, What wonder if the fame men 
can be Papifts or any thing ? 

But I will tell you fome of tlu j particular 

I, Abroad 


I, Abroad in other Countries, there are all thefe 
Reafons eafily difcernible, i. Who knoweth not 
how great an advantage Education hath, to form 
mens judgements to almoftany thing, how bad fo- 
ever ? That which children receive, if it be not dif- 
flgreeable cc their fenfible intereft, how commonly 
and tuuciota Jo they follow ? Whence is it that the 
whole Fmpires and Kingdoms of Pagans are all of 
one mind ; and the Kingdoms of Mahometans of 
another ? One Kingdom almoft all Greek Chrifti- 
ans and another Papi/ls, and another Lutherans, and 
another Reformists, &e ? Hath not education a great 
hand in this ? 

2. And the cuftome of the Countrey, and the com- 
pany which they converfe with, is of no fmall pow- 
er with mens minds. Efpecially when men \ivt 
where almoft all are of a wind, they think that con- 
cord is a fign of tnith, and mode fly forbiddeth them 
to be wifer than all the Countrey. 

3. And when they know few or none of another 
mind, how fhould they know what they are ? And 
when they hear an hundred lies againfl: them, and 
never hear them fpeak for themfelves, they think 
that the Law of modefty, humanity and converfe, ob- 
lige them to believe, that fo Many, fo Great, and fo 
Learned and Religious perfons will not impudently 
lie : When as perhaps thelve it felf is a Tradition 
which the lyars received on the fame terms in modeft 
credulity from their teachers or fathers. 

4. And fpecially, the Names of Order, Govern- 
ment, Vriity, and Qoncord., deceive many millions of 
fouls : For Order and Vnity are juftly amiable to 
nature it felf. And the purblind know not an Image 
from a Man* 

5. Efpecially 


5» Efpecially when civil Wars, or Church dif- 
cords have diftra&ed the World, and made men 
aweary of all that's prefent, and fufpicious of all 
things, which feemed to have a hand in their dif- 
appointments ; this maketh men hearken to any 
thing which pretendeth to certain fcttlement, Order 
and peace. Even as a man that by turning round 
is wheelfick, will lay hold on the next poft or 
fixed thing, to keep him from falling down. 

6. And when their Teachers make them believe, 
that all Chriftians befides them do live like mad- 
men, in Se&s and Scjiifmes, diftra&edly tearing 
out one anothers throats, What wonder if this make 
men willing of any way which pretends to peace, 
znd glad to run into any Cottage which will keep 
them from fuch a ftorm ? 

7. But the great caufe is, 1. The 'Blindnefs of 
mens minds, 2. The wickednefs of all unrenewed 
hearts, and 3. The power of carnal Interejh 

1. Few men are of great natural parts for wit, 
and fewer improve them, by any ferious ftudy of 
things fpi ritual. 

2. Almoft all men ftudy with the byas of pre- 
judice and partiality, and as men that would have 
one fide to be right , becaufe it is for their worldly 

3 . Sin Ruleth in moft fouls, and the enmity againft 
God ajid his Laws prevaileth in carnal minds, Rom, 
8. 6, 7, 8. And enmity is an ill ftudent and feeker 
of truth ^ and friendfhip is an incompetent judge 
of fin. 

4. None but a few felf-denying perfons can bear 
to be reproached as Hereticks and Schifmaticks by all 
about them. 

5. Efpecially 


5- Efpecially the countenance or difcountenance 
of Great ones, doth more with fuch than Heaven 
and Hell. 

6. And that's not all, But he that will not be a Pa- 
pift, in moft of their Countreys muft be undone^nd in 
many muft be rackt> tormented and burnt : And it is 
but few that have learnt to go to fo high a 
price for truih, and to be Religious at fuch a 

8. Therefore it is a thing utterly unknown among 
them, who is heartily a Papift, and who not. For 
when men ngfl take on them to be Papifts or be 
undone, or burnt, millions will feem to be fuch that 
are not. For, 

9. Moft of the World have no Religion in truth 
and fower, to overcome the world and flefh : and 
therefore will feem to be of that Religion, which 
hath the upper hand, and ferveth their turns. 

io. Yea, the very Belief of the Immortality of 
the foul, the RefurreBion and the life to come, is 
feeble, if not unfound and lifelefs, in the moft of 
men : And fo is the Belief of the ftriftian faith : 
And a man that doubteth whether there be another 
life or not, will make as fure as he can of the plea- 
fures of this prefent life. And I fear that this is 
the cafe of no fmall number of Papifts . to think, 
[_ u I know not whether there be any other life 
c c of retribution : I rather think that there is none : 
" But left it fhould prove true, I will be of fome 

Religion : And where can I be with more eafe 

and fafety, than in that which my Rulers and 
cc Teachers and the whole Countrey fay is right > 
" If it prove otherwife, I hope God will excufe 

me, while I obey my Governours, and do as the 

<c moft 




"moftdo. 3 He that much doubteth of the truth 
of £hriftiamty it felf, may eafily fall in with any 
Sed which feemeth for his intereft. I fear *JHc- 
lantlhon too truly faid, that Italians maintain that 
Chrifi is in the Sacrament , when they do not believe 
that he ts in Heaven, 

1 1 . And many Nicodemites think , that a man 
needs not expofe himfelf to danger for his faith, 
but may keep it to himfelf, and do as his neigh- 
bours do : efpecially where they have no other fo- 
ciety. to joyn with , they think it better to joyii with 
the Popiih Churches than none. 
! 12. And I have re^fon co thinl^that it is but 
few among the multitude, that underftand indeed 
what the Papifts hold, while they go with them in 
the general Name and profeflion : And in parti- 
cular . about Tranfubftantiation : When even the 
fubtle Schoolmen are not agreed of its proper 
fenfe • (as Daraxdus his inftance for one doth 
prove. J I do not think that one of an hundred 
that rcceiveth their Euchariit, doth in his heart 
believe, that It is not Bread : But fome think that 
their Church it felf meancth othenvife : And fome 
fay, Q It is not for fuch as I to contradict them 
and difpute • but I will leave every one to think as 
he will •, and fo will I.] 

13. And as for Princes and Lords abroad, Thofe 
that have once efcaped Popery will take heed how 
they entertain it again , unlefs lufl and folly have 
fold them for a prey : But they that live where 
their fubjeBs are Papifts, dare not venture to fhake 
fo great a fabrick, left they overthrow thcmfclves : 

For 1. People are tumultuous - 3 

2. The 

c 175; 

2. The Popifh Clergie are rich and powerful and 
exceeding numerous. 

3. Religion is a thing that men are tender and te- 
nacious of, who are ferioufly of any. 

4. The Popifh doftrine of depofing and killing 
excommunicate Kings, maketh many Princes flatter 
the Priefts, for fear of lofing their lives. They 
think that it is better make feme advantage of the 
Popes friend/hip, than to have fuch an enemy, 
whofe Kniv.s and poifon have eafie accefs, and 
whofe armies we trufb watch againflj in peace, as 
in a continued War, and we know not when they 
are in our o^n holies or near us, nor where nor 

14. And, alas, the Great ones of the World 
have the gr sate ft Temptations, and no: ilie weakj 
eft lufts and paffions, and have more of worldly and 
carnal latere ft to carry them away ! 

15. And the Papifts Religion is notably fuited 
to their lufts and carnal ends : All which, and much 
more, may tell you that it no wonder, that fo many 
forreign Princes, and States and Nobles can cleave to 
fo fenflefs a way as Popery. 

D. II. But how come fo many among us in 
England to turn Papifts of late years, where Po- 
pery is difcountenanced by the King, Parliament 
and Laws ? 

R. Many of the fame Caufes do this, which I 
need not reherfe. And 1. Too many both Noble 
and ignoble are prepared by their Lnfts, and by a 
vicious life. There are many things in Popery 
which greatly accommodate a carnal mind and a 
debauched guilty Conscience, which the Chriftian 
f rote ft ant Religion affordeth not. And a profligate 


flagitious perfon, is likelieft to be forfaken of God , 
and to be given up to believe a lye , feeing they 
received not the truth in the love of it , that they 
might be faved , 2 Thejf. 2. 10, 11, 12. I fear no- 
thing fo much , as left men turn Heart-Infidels and 
Tongue-? api ft s ( as the fuitableft Rcferve, \d\Chn- 
ftian Religion and the life to come , ihould prove a 
truth ). And indeed great fins Cry for great Ven- 
geance : And what Greater than for Mind, Will and 
Life to be forfaken of God ? 

2. And alas, except Lawyers, Phyficions and 
others bred up to Studies and Employments, how 
few are there of Nobility or Gentry that are hard 
ftudying men 1 And the great Myfteries of Religi- 
on will not be well learned and defended, by a 
life of eating, drinking, playing, jeafting, gaming, 
hawking , hunting , vifitings of empty company, 
luftiiilnefs , worldlinefs , or vain-glorious pomp. 
No men grow wife or Chriflians indeed by fuch 
a eourfe* 

3. And indeed the Popiflj Trie (is are more in- 
duftrious than too many 01 our Incumbent Minifters ; 
for which they are Commendable in their way : 
The Erroneous are oft more zealous than the Or- 
thodox, And they that apprehend themfelves be- 
tween fear and hope, are ufually more tnduftriom 
than they that by poffeffwn are fccure : which 
maketh the lower fide fo oft get up , and the up- 
per fide go down. And I would I might not lay, 
that our Minifters are too few of them able t& 
deal with a trained Sophifter ; Some are 'unable 
in this particular canfe , becaufe they take it as a 
baffled pack of notorious Errors, and thought that 
few fober perfons were in danger of it ; And fo 


they have ( honeftly ) bent their ftudies and la- 
bours to the winning of fenfual perfons from their 
(ins ; and are unfurnifhed in the Popi/h Contrc- 
verfies •, knowing that they can refer them to mul- 
titudes of Books , which are unanfwerable. But 
alas, too many alfo are unable through meer ig* 
7iorancc, lovonefs of parts } and grcfs infufficiency or 
negligence , not only in this , but other parts of 
their Ministerial work. 

4. And we have incurred no fmall dammage 
and danger , by ignorant Over-doing againft the 
Papifts : Partly with the fe If ^voife Sectaries^ calling 
many laudable or biamelefs things , by the Name 
of Popery, y Antithriftianity and Idolatry , becaufe 
they are crofs to their pre- judging partial con- 
ceits : And. partly by fome unfonn'd dcclriner , 
which fome defend as parts of the Proteftant Reli- 
gion : And partly by magnifying verbal differences, 
and making a noife about them as if they were 
reaU and fuch as falvation lyeth on : For want of 
skjll to ftate a controverfie , and difcern a verbal 
difference from a real. And when a Papift can 
but fhew their Novices one fuch palpable error in 
the Writings of a Proteftant ^ What fad work will 
he make with it ? and ftill harp upon that firing, 
and perfwade the people that the reft cf our diffe- 
rences are fuch like. And thus many Overdoing 
weLI-meaning ignorant men both Minifters and 
people , have unwittingly done as much to harden 
Papifts , and increafe their numbers , almoft as if 
Satan had hired them as Spies, to betray the Chur- 
ches and Caufe of Chrift : Yea, and ii^ one better 
ftudied in thefe points , fhall go a founder and 

N more 

.. (178) 
more fuccefsful way to work, and take thcfe wea- 
pons out of the Papifts hands, which fome igno- 
rant Proteftants have given them , the fame mens 
blind zeal will rage againft them , ( as fome did 
againfl Chillingwortb, Anthony Wotton, and divers 
others our greateft Champions ) as if it were not 
themselves but thefe , that were befriending Pope- 
ry. So that they, neither can confute them found- 
ly themfelves, nor will fuffer others, but zealous 
Proteftants affault Chrifts ableft fervants at their 
backs , while their faces are towards the adverfa- 
ries whom they oppofe. 

5. But nothing among us ( except Ignorance 
and wickednefs ) increafeth them more , than the 
fcandal of our numerous , and fome of them abo- 
minable Sells. When the people fee many zea- 
lous profefTors turn Quakers, or Ranters, or Seek- 
ers , or Antinomians , or Socinians, or Familifts- 
• and fhall fee the more tolerable parties ( Epifco- 
pal, Presbyterian, Independant , Eraftian, Separa- 
tifts, and Anabaptifts ) condemning, backbiting, 
reproaching and making odious ( if not perfecute- 
ing ) one another, and fhunning ( many of them ) 
the Communion of one another , as they do the 
Papifts. This makes them think , that they mull 
feek fome furer foberer way than any of us have 
yet found : and the Papifts fee in arid tell them, 
\_ u Ail thefe are branches broken ott from the 
u true Vine and withered ^ This it is to depart from 
" the Catholick Church •, when they are once gone 
" thence, there is no ftop or confiftence , nil they 
" crumble all to duft and atomes : You mutt be- 
!* come Roman Catholicks, or go mad : You fee 


M to what confufion all others tend : If you once 
" leave our Church , you will never know where 
"to fettle : Which Setf: will you be of ? If 
"an Independant , why not an Anabaptift? 
u If an Anabaptifl , why not an Antinomian ? 
" How will you ever know which one of all 
'< thefe is in the right 3 ? All this is eafily an*- 
fwered by a man of underftanding ; But to 
the ignorant Vulgar , it feemeth unanfwera- 
ble. And alas , how many have given them 
this fcandal ? Wo be to fome by whom offence 

6. But the Contentions of' our Clergie ad- 
vantage them more than the divisions of the 
people : when we are of many interefts , and 
many parties , and proceed to make each other 
contemptible and odious : efpecially when we come 
to hinder each other from the work, of our Mi- 
niftry. A houfe and Kingdom divided cannot 
ftand : Chrift tells us that the Devil himfelf is 
not fo foolifh , as to divide his Kingdom * *All 
our confent and bed endeavour is too little to 
fave mens fouls from fin and error : And when 
one fart is cafi by, and each part by contention 
hindereth the other : the Papifts have the far 
eafier work. When one part are not to come 
within five miles of Cities or Corporations , 
where Papifts are , and thofe that may come near 
them are too few , and many too indifpofed , or 
negligent in refifting them • fo that we are all 
overdone by their Prkfts in conftant diligence, 
( efpecially with the Greater rank^ of men , with 
whom one part of our Minifters , have almoft as 

N 2 little 

little inclination as opportunity to converfe , ) no 
wonder if the Roman work go on. 

7. And, alas, how great advantage have they 
made of cur late calamitous Civil Wars, and ma- 
nifold fcandalous Rebellions ? Though indeed it 
was the terrour of their murdering about two bun- 
dred thoufand in Ireland ( of which fee Bi/bop 
Jones , Sir John Ttmple , and the Earl of Orery 
againft Weljh, ) which frightened thole that I was 
acquainted with, out of their peace , and al- 
mofl out of their wits here in England, yet dead 
men are not heard on Earth, and their iervice for 
the King in England ferveth not only for a Cloke 
for that, but for an advantage againft many that 
(land in their way. In all Civil Wars, if the 
Clergy be drawn in to own ftveral Caufes ( efpe- 
cially if they own an ill fiiufe ) who ever pre- 
vailed, Religion furTereth by it . while one part 
of them are laid by, or hindered by the 

8. And though God hath greatly obliged this 
Nation to thankfulnefs, by preferving our Superi- 
ors fo much from Popery as he hath done, yet 
fome of their names are injuriously abufed, to en- 
tice men to the Popifh way, as if it had fo much 
countenance and patronage, that Jnterefl might ia- 
vite them to ir. 

9. And the World is lyable to changes, and 
weary of holding long in one way : The name of 
-Antiquity efpecialiy in Religion is venerable with 
all \ but yet it is Novelty that pleafeth in the 
Matter. And when Fopery is to m a New way 
honoured with the name of the old Religion, it is a 
taking bait. . 10. But 


io. But the grand caiife of all, is, the common 
peoples Ignorance , as being ungrounded in their 
own Religion j and their badnefs, who meafure all 
by carnal Jnterefts, and all our great and manifold 
fins, by which we have forfeited Gods prefence 
and his grace, and provoked him to leave us to the 
fhame and ruine of our own lufts and delufions to 
undoe our felves. Great fins bring great plagues. 
And moft men are of their Religion who have the 
greatefl inter eft in their eftimation and affeBions , 
or that have gr^ateft advantage on them by con- 
ft ant neamefsy familiarity , kindred , ktndnefs 
or power to do them good or hurt in the World. 

And Therefore to your quefticn Why fo many of 
late turn Papjfts, I fhall but now conclbdingly an- 
fwer you, as T begun with you, concerning the 
Caufe of your own doubts ; They that have long 
lived under the light of the holy Gcfpel , and 
among the mercies which have bleft this Land, and 
yet have been fincerely no true Chriftians, but 
ioved their fiefhly lufts and pleafures, and their 
wealth and worldly honour, more than God, or 
holinefs, or Heaven, it is no wonder that they 
eafily change their party, and can be, in ftding y 
of any Religion who are in fmcerity of none - 
and if God forfake their underftandings, and give 
them up to fenfeiefs and unreafonable opinions, 
wl^o would not live according to the knowledge 
which they had, nor obey the truth which was 
clearly opened to them, And fuch hypocrites and 
perfidious rebels againft Chrift, all Proteftants do 
confefs themfelves to have been , who turn Papifts, 
and know what they do : Becaufe they frofefs to go 
from a ftate of damnation, into a Church <mt of 

N 3 which 


which there is no [ah at ion ^ if the Pcpcs judge * 
ment ' be as powerful in Heaven, as it is at 

D. But is there no hope of ending thefe la- 
mentable differences, and removing the fcandal of 
Infidels hereby ? or at lead: of living together like 
Neighbours without feeking each others blood or 
ruine ? 

R. i. Yes • when God fhall by his Providence 
take down the worldly Greatnefs and Advantages 
of the Papacy, and level the King of Rome with the 
true Paftors of his Church, and turn the ufurping 
Monarch of all the World into a true Bi/hop •, 
that fo worldly Power, honour and wealth, may 
not be flronger arguments with their party than 
Heaven and Hell, and Gods commands. Till then 
their Great twifted Intereft is like to rule them, 
and keep them in the errours into which it hath 
involved them. Efpecially while their pretended In- 
fallibility ( againft all fenfe and reafon ) is their 
ltrength, which makeji them uncurable in any errour 
which they once embrace, 

2. But yet I did in the fecond Part of my Key 
for Catholickj^ long ago fhew the terms on which 
we may live like neighbours, if not like Chrifti- 
ans } if their principles would allow their minds, 
to be but peaceable, and give diffenters leave to 

And I ftill pro fefs that might we but fecurc our 
fives and our poflcrity, I am none of thofe that 
would have the leaft injury, much lefs cruelty ex- 
ercifed upon any man for being a Papiffc : If they 
will live peaceably with me, or but give me leave, I 
will live peaceably vyirh them. And I doubt not 



but as there are fome among them truly fearing 
God ( though corrupt with the errours of ihcir 
education ) lo there are more that are of kind 
and civil natures, which their ill opinions cannot 
make fierce and fanguinary nor overcome. And 
none of them, I think, ihall be more loving . kind 
and peaceable to me, ..han I will be to him. 

And I confefs 1 have a greater refpeA and ho- 
nour for thofe whole Anceftors have tranfmitted 
Popery to them under the name of the True Ca.ho- 
Jick faith, and who live according to what they 
know (though perhaps in blind zeal they hate me 
and iiich others for the Intereft of their way,) 
than I have for thofe that feemed once Proteftants, 
and by filthy debauched lives have made it feem 
needful or convenient for them to turn Papifts, 
that they may have a feeming Religion and Priefts 
pardons to quiet or deceive their Consciences ^ or 
than I have for thofe Papifts who live in drunken- 
nefs, Iuft and common lying and prophane fwear- 
ing, while yet they feem to be Religious and re- 
gardful of God and their fouls • or than I have 
for thofe Priefts who befriend fuch mens wick- 
ednefs for the increafe and intereft of their Church. 

Yea, I truly profefs that if I know a truly 
Godly confcionable charitable Papift, I muft, I 
will love and honour him far more than an ungodly, 
unconfcionable, uncharitable Proteftant. And as far 
as I can difcern, both Minifters and private Chri- 
ftians ( but efpecially Minifters ) whom I moft 
converfe with, are of the fame mind. 

Z>. But is there no way poffible to bring them 
fairly off, in this grofs bufinefs of Tranfubftantia- 

N 4 tion. 

tion, without putting them upon the difclaiming 
of the Popes and General Councils Infallibi- 
lity ? 

K. I am not bound to devife accommodations 
to ftrengthen them in their other errours, if I 
could. But yet I would cure any errour in any, 
! hough they intend their own cure to an evil end. 
I cannot be perfwaded but their underftanding 
iron are forry at the heart that the Lat crane 
Council hath drawn them into fuch a fnare, by 
making Tranfubftamiarion an Article of their faith • 
and that they are very angry at them, and wifh 
that it had never been done : but being done 
they mud take on them to believe it, left they pull 
down with their foundation all their fabrick. I 
doubt not but they are troubled and afhamed to 
read the Schoolmen*; difputes of Tranfubftantiation, 
expofing Chriftanity to the Infidels fcorn, which 
this Council hath mod occafioned. I know not 
how to bring rhem off, unlefs they will hearken 
to what Dr. Taylor in liis Diflwaiive from Popery, 
and Dr. Hcylw> and Dr. Fierfon and Dr. Gaining 
in rhe Difpuce, have faid againfl the Validity of 
that Later Ant Council (could they but fpare the 
Canon for depoflng Temporal Lords, and difpof- 
ieifing them of their Dominions, and abfolving all 
their Papifts fubjefts from their Oaths of Allegi- 
ance and exterminating the reft ^ Yea it would 
be more ferviceable to them at laft with Princes, 
to retract that alfo, than to keep it. ) Their belt 
way is to take the help of thefe pretences, and 
condemn the contrary Reafons of Mr. Tcrret and 
his iellow Difputanr againfl the forefaid Doctors, 


and expunge that Council out of Binn'ms, Snrim 
and the reft who number it with the approved 
Councils ; and becaufe Mattb. Tar is and others fay 
that fome at the Council thought the Canons bur- 
denfom, and they were brought in by the Pope, 
and haftily read, esrc* therefore fay, that They were 
not pa/Ted at leaft Conciliariter, which you know is 
a word that ferveth their turn againft another Coun- 
cil which they diflike. 

D. But what fhall they do with following 
Councils, efpecially that at Trent y which fay the 

R. The beft fhifts that I know are, i. To do 
as they do about the condemning of Pope Honori- 
rius as a Heretick. They fay that a General 
Council and Pope too may err in a matter of 
fad: 5 and fo they did in judging of Homrius 
his meaning : So they may fay , that the Coun- 
cil of Trent did decree this as an Article of 
faith, only becaufe they thought that the Church fo 
held it : which was becaufe they thought that 
the General approved Council of Laterane had fo 
decreed it : But now rinding that it was not fo 
decreed there , the error in matter of fad ceaf- 
ing , which was the fuppoficion , the doctrinal 
error proveth to be no Article of faith, or Conci- 
liariter dccrctum* 

2* Or if this will not do , they are beft yet 
ftretch the words of Rome and Trent , to a more 
tolerable figniflcation , and fay , That it is not 
the ceafing of the fubftance of Bread and Wine 
which is meant ; but the changing it into a Re- 
lative new form : And fo, as the Whole fnbftance 


of a man is changed from leing a meer Common 
man , into a King , a Btjhop , a Doclor y with- 
out any ceflation of his Humanity y but only 
quia forma ultima denominat r he is not any 
more to be called meerly A Man , but A King y 
A Bijhep , &c. Or, as the whole fubftance of a 
piece ol Gold is changed into Currant Coin by 
the Kings Stamp, &c. So the whole fubflance of 
Bread is turned into the ( Reprefentative ) Body 
of Chrtfl , and the whole fubflance of Wine in- 
to his ( Reprefentative ) blood - 7 which change they 
cal I Tranfubfiantiat ion. 

Bur why (hould I give counfel to men that wil] 
not thank me for it , and that obftinately refufe 
much better ? 

JD. But why fpeak you nothing of their deny- 
ing- the people the Cqp ? I thought you would 
principally have faftned on that; 

R. Becaufe it is no part of this prefent Con- 
troverfie , which I was firft to handle , though it 
concern the fame Sacrament : But it is fuch an 
inftance , as ferveth to tell thofe of the world that 
will underftand , what horrid unreafonable , auda- 
cious arrogance and Vfurpation and Treafon againfi 
God and the true Head of the Church , this pre- 
tended Monarch of the world , and his pretend- 
ed Catholick Church ( the Popifh SeA ) arc 
guilty of : confidering, 

1. That it is as ejfential a part of the Sacra- 
crament as the Bread is : For Chrifl hath made 
no difference. 

2. It hath the fame Initiation and exprefs Com- 
mand : He that faid, £ Take , Eat J faid alfo 

[ Drink, 


[ "Drinks ye all of this : ] He hath fkid, [ Do 
this in remembrance of we ~\ of One as well as of 
the Other. 

3 Therefore to take away an Bjjential fart, 
is to take away the Sacrament , and make it ano- 
ther thing. As it is not a humane body that hath 
not both Head and Heart : So here. 

4. Therefore by the fame authority they might 
have continued the £)//>, and taken away the Bread ^ 
or have taken away both. 

5. And on the fame reafon they might have 
taken away Baptifm, and all Chrifts pofitive Inftituti- 
ons. And for ought I know the Miniftry it felf as 

6. But then Cerfons queflion , de auferahilitate 
Tap* would be next to be debated : For were he 
of Chrifts own Jnftitntion ( as he is not ) it is 110 
more than the Cup in the Lords Supper. Could 
he but prove an Inftitution of his Papacy as evi- 
dently , who would not be his Subjed ? If you 
fay, But who fliould take him down , if it might 
be done ? I anfwer, Kings in their own Kingdoms, 
and his own General Councils. The Kings- of 
France, Spain, &c. may eafily prove , that they 
have more power to caft out the Pope , than he 
hath to call: out half Chrifts Sacrament : And 
they may better forbid their own Subjects to obey 
a forreign <itf)$per , than he can forbid all the 
world to ojHf Chrifl^** 

7.^Wf^Dr all thi$j|Wre wit of man can hard- 
ly dfyfe What Reafon they have to do it ? What 
point of their Religion ? What Intereft of their 
own did engage them to it ? Unlefs it be their 
* Intereft 


Intereft to (hew that they are Ajove Chrift 
and the Scripture , I do not yet difcern their 

8. And yet they have, with Refolntion and ob- 
flinacy, perfifted herein divers hundreds of years, 
and denyed the requefts of Emperours, Nobles, 
and great part of feveral Kingdoms in this point. 

This and the leaving out the fecond Command- 
ment , feem to be of purpofe to (hew that they 
are above the Maker of the Ten Commandments 
and of the Gofpeh How long Lord (hall Ty- 
ranny opprefs the Nations of the Earth, and the 
Honour and Domination and Wills of Rebels , pre- 
vail to tread down Truth and Godlinefs, and keep 
the notice of thy falvation from the fmful mifera- 
ble world • whileft yet we daily pray by thy Com- 
mand , that Thy Name way be Hallowed , Thy 
Kingdom e come, and Thy Will be done ^ on Earth 
as it is done in Heaven ? 

Whether the Pope be the Antichrift meant in 
the Scripture ( by that name ) or not , you fee 
that my paifing it by doth (hew my cauteioufnefs 
in refolving ( as Zanchy and others before me 
have done ), becaufe I am confeffedly fo far un- 
ftudyed or ignorant of the fenfe of the Revelati- 
ons and fome other Scripture Prophecies , as that 
I muft leave fuch cafes to fuch as Bifhop Dow- 
ntime and others that have deeper infight into 
them : Every man (hould be bed at that which 
he hath moft (ludyed. But I mud: needs fay, that 
though T take it to be indifpenfible duty, to keep 
up all due charity to all profefled Ghriftiarrs- fuch 
inftances, as thefe which I have here opened do ut- 

• terjy 


terly di fable me from confuting that man , who 
fhall aflert that this pretended Vicar of Chrift, 
and King or Monarch of the world, ( and fo King 
of Kings, and Lord of Lords ) is an abominable 
Ufurper, and infolent Tray tor , againli God, and 
the true King and Head of the Univerfal Church* 
How long will Princes and Prelates , Learned and 
Unlearned be deluded by him , or fear Power ? 
And when (riall he be reftrained from hindering 
Chrifts Gofpel, and the Peace and Concord of the 
Chriftian world ? 


The Reader is hereby advertifed, 
That the Firft Part of the l\ey for 
Catholicks, being Re-printed and to be 
Bound with this ( as the Chief Part 
of the Book, ) thofe that have that 
Part already, may have this Bound